Have we accidentally removed a load bearing wall?

[poppybristol]

We had 2x builders say the wall wasn't load bearing, so we removed it ourselves today. However when quoting there was a lot of head scratching as there is a brick wall upstairs, but not directly above it -about 2ft away running parallel, with a gap underneath so it appears to be resting on the floorboards only. Its the only brick wall upstairs and separates the bathroom from a bedroom. It's built in 1930 and is a typical semi. Anyway the conclusion was that this wall wasn't putting load on to the wall below which we wanted to remove. So we cracked on.

The joists for the floor above all run parallel, again leading us to think it's not load bearing. However on removal there appears to be one joist/wooden beam running perpendicular which was resting on the wall. See pics. Does this mean it was holding a load? ???

The beam runs from where the stairs meet the bathroom perpendicular to all the other joists, which on inspection are cut so that this beam remains uncut (see pic of floorboard removed to expose it from upstairs). This beam runs perpendicular to the wall, with the other bathroom wall (stud) on top then under the bedroom.

We're living here so a bit worried now. Any ideas?

The first pic shows the room -you can see the line on the ceiling where the wall was removed. This joist we've discovered runs from the stairs (the boxed lowered ceiling in right corner) perpendicular/slicing the wall we've removed.
Second pic is close up underside of beam.
The other two are uncovering the beam from above.

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[ree]

I'm finding it difficult to understand your text and to match it with the pics.

Why not post a sketched plan view showing whats where, and referenced to the pics?

 

[kazuya]

sounds like it wasn't a load bearing wall and someone's just built a dividing wall straight onto the floorboards, ive seen it done before.
usually remove it and put a stud up.

 

[tony1851]

As above, it's hard to picture what's going on. The beam you describe as running perpendicular to the floor joists will be a trimmer, which is necessary in the landing. The trimmer picks up the load from the incoming joists where they finish at the edge of the stairwell (it may be slightly thicker than the joists).

If that rests on the wall you took out, it may have derived some support from the wall.

But panic not, at least not yet. Timber joists and beams can often accommodate much higher loads than is normally assumed.

Again as above, it would be far easier to see with a rough sketch layout of the floor system - the pics don't give much away.

 

[poppybristol]

Thanks guys and sorry, reading it back it is a bit messy!
Heres a sketch drawn on top of the upstairs layout.
Pink wall is the only brick one upstairs.
The yellow and blue walls are the downstairs ones.
The yellow (brick) is the one we have removed. The blue is the only stud wall downstairs which may be recent as had 60s door rather than 30s.
The red line is the joist weve found, ive shown dots as havent uncovered the ends yet.

Untitled

• poppybristol
• 18 Nov 2014
• 1

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Looks very similar to a wall I've recently pulled out. The laths running above where your wall was indicate that it wasn't particularly structural, bet that your red perpendicular trimmer is bearing on one of the joists parallel with the yellow wall not far from where your old wall was.

Have you had a look in the loft to make sure there aren't any purlins or similar supported by the pink brick wall? Are the outside walls full brick (9 inch) or half brick? (If half brick then that pink wall might be doing some buttressing so removal might not be a good idea)

When you walk about on the landing and in that bedroom does anything move that didn't move before? Get a long tape measure, fix it to one of the joists mid span or thereabouts, measure the height to a fixed object (the floor will do). Then fill the bath and get someone to stand at the top of the stairs and measure the height again. You're allowed deflection of 0.003 x span or 14mm (whichever is the lesser) in current building regs, give that the timber in there will be a lot stronger than modern timber I'll be surprised if it moves at all.

I don't think you've got a lot to worry about but without seeing it it is hard to tell. If you've put a building notice in then your local building inspector will be able to assist

 

[tony1851]

As per O.B.N.D., your red joist may have gone past the wall, and be nailed to one of the joists running perpendicular under the back bedroom.
You really need to find where that trimmer ends.

 

[poppybristol]

A quick update for those that posted... we had a structural engineer round today who gave us some verbal advice for free.

The trimmer (red line) is taking the weight of the light stud wall above it between bathroom and stairs but also some of the weight from the bathroom as those joists ware attached to it. It was likely to have been transferring this load to the brick wall below (yellow line). So yes, contrary to 2x builders advice is was load bearing, but not a lot of load.(other bathroom wall in pink is indeed brick and built off the floorboards! Apparently not uncommon in these houses)

Engineer says we are in no immeadiate danger as the beam is strong but we do need to support it moving forward (especially if we are to add weight in the bathroom via tiles and cast iron tub!). This could be a collumn or a beam, likely timber will suffice.

Also pointed out that removing this wall has left very little support for the back wall of the house which is single brick so we should leave a nub, probably around 600mm so can be disguised with kitchen units. The beam can also sit on this. Neither builder mentioned this at all.

So we now have to pay for a structural engineer to do the calculations and paperwork (ive been told £200-350) and submit plans to building control (+fees), be inspected as well as purchase and install beam. Luckily we dont need to rebuild too much of the wall so nothing lost really.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Always good to hear outcomes- no use to you now but some building inspectors can be really useful with stuff like this in older houses (to the extent of saving you SE fees and major build costs). Good luck with it all