Help/advice regards gas fire installation (esp. with K11 tanking system used)

[thetotalnovice]

Our living room is going to be having the complete Hey'Di K11 tanking system used on it from Sovereign Chemicals (I can go more in depth there if needed? But that's the basic jist).

We currently have a gas fire installed, but god knows when it was last used. We bought the house in Nov 2013 & we haven't used it. The previous owner said they never really used it either.


1) What order should the work be carried out?

We are thinking - fire removal > K11 tanking system > plaster (special plaster used) > fire install.

The only thing is, the company doing the damp proofing don't do fire installs & we don't want the fire installation company to have to chip off a load of damp specific plaster & any of the tanking.


2) Can these gas fires really belt out the heat?

My only experience of fires have been 'real' fires which make the room incredibly warm. I guess it'll depend on the KW you get. Online calculators say we should be looking at 4.25KW.

3) Can gas ones be used during a power cut?

Stupid question perhaps, but our gas cooker for example as an electric ignition.

4) We are wanting a fire with flue. Is this as simple as just dropping a couple pipes down the chimney & connecting them up?



But yeah, the big one really is the order we should be doing this in, what with the damp proofing, as we don't want the job held up any


EDIT: One thing that is a little concerning is that when searching for fire installs, when you seem to look at electric fires - all you seem to find is people saying how they've "ripped out so many" electric fires recently & replaced with gas.

Then you look for gas installed & you read from many who have "ripped out so many gas fires lately" & replaced with 'real' multi stove fires.

So then you read on those & there's many who have "ripped out so many" real fires lately & gone to gas/electric.

Bit of a merry go round


If it helps - we will be out of the house from 7am-6pm. We would like the fire as 1) another source of heat 2) focal point of living room. It'll just be largely used in the winter time i would imagine.

 

[ScottishGasMan]

4. Your Fire has a flue, its the chimney. If you wanted, it may be possible to fit a flue liner if theres not already one, but it will be dependant on the fire make/instructions (if you dont have the instructions, or details of the make/model of the fire so instructions can be found online you may have trouple getting someone to recommission it)

3. Yea, most can, as long as its a manual valve, which most will be. Is there a power lead feeding the fire at the moment? most will not have, and will be a peizo igniter or use a batter for a spark ignition, either way a taper or long mach will light it just the same.

2. Unlikley, most gas fires are pretty inefficient, again it will depend on the KW output of that fire, but most will be lost up the flue unless its a radiant type fire which that one is not.

1. You need to speak to the plastering company about this really, sometimes special plaster is required for chimney breasts due to the heat, although on an old one like what you have I doubt there would be any noticable heat transfer through the chimney. but if the fire surround is removed and the plasterers dont tank over the opening, then why would someone refitting the fire need to chip any away?

 

[thetotalnovice]

Wow, thanks for the speedy reply.

To answer your question on #3 - sorry i can't. I don't know if anything is feeding the fire at all. We've never tried to light it & i've just spoken with my wife who says the previous owner actually said to her she didn't know how to turn the fire on (so shows how much they used it).


If the fire doesn't kick out a lot of heat then there's really going to be very little point having one.

I did a search just simply to find one over 4KW & listed as being efficient...

http://www.superiorfires.co.uk/grosvenor-blenheim-black-high-efficiency-gas-fire.html

Would you expect this fire to kick out some good heat?

Like i said, the online calculatoirs say we 'require' 4.25KW. This isn't far behind at 4.1. The fire is also listed as being 90% efficient, so i guess this is as good as it's going to get. But if it wont make much difference then it is pointless.


EDIT: The room dimensions are 7mtr-x-3.5mtr, so whilst it's not the biggest living room in the world, it's not exactly a small space to be heating either.

 

[ScottishGasMan]

Yea, a more modern fire like that has the potential to give a better heat output as compared to the old one thats currently installed.

1st port of call would be to get your gas fitter to remove and make safe the old fire, this way he can inspect the chimney and fireplace opening to determine if that fire is suitable for you. The opening can be adjusted to suit from there, and then you get your plastering done, and then gas fitter would come back to fit the new fire as the opening has been previously prepared to fit it.

Try get someone who deals with fires a lot, many gas fitters stick to boilers and wont be too confident about fitting fires, I've worked on them for years doing testing and repairs, but never in my life fitted one from scratch lol.

Will the fire be the Only source of heat in the room? or will there also be radiators? nowadays fires are much more for decoration, or a heat boost rather than a sole heat emmiter for a room, so if you have radiators I wouldnt worry too much about the output

 

[thetotalnovice]

Well i really don't think we did our homework on this at all.

Just throwing the costs together of the damp proofing work, a fire install (& materials), furnishing etc etc,

Story short, i think we're going to just have to go with the current fire taken out, expose the recess & leave it as that (no fire installed).

Yeah we do have radiators. We may go for new ones, or at the very least have a plumber check the system out to see if it's running efficiently.

For a room that size we only have a single panel 'large' one across the front window & then quite a small one tucked away in the opposite corner. Really not a lot i would've thought. But i guess newer radiators & the system checked out would help.

 

[Agile]

There is often a lot more work fitting a fire than most people realise. Yet customers expect it will cost less than£100.

I don't understand what the OP here wants to achieve. Seems he wants to fully heat the room JUST with a fire and presumably leave the rest of the house with no heating turned on ( that's if he does have heating installed ).

Fires nowadays are usually a decorative feature and an electric one provides 100% efficient heat and costs very little!

Tony

 

[FiremanT]

Probably best to ignore Tony. You hadn't intimated you are a cheapskate, and modern fires can be very efficient. Electric fires can be cheap to buy, but only provide a max of 2Kw (AFAIK). Our Lounge is a reasonable size, and we use the gas fire extensively, rather than heating the whole bungalow. It is not on high for long!

Have you abandoned the gas fire idea, due to escalating costs, or because of the work involved? The Scot made some very good points. In particular the need to engage a guy who works regulalry with fires. A lot of my jobs take 3 visits, to work around other building requirements.

Sovereign? Is that the make or model? I thought Sovereign had gone under, and they were low market end fires when they were around.

If you revisit the gas fire idea, avoid Focal Point, or one of their other badges.

 

[Agile]

I think his "Sovereign" was the injected damp proofing system and not A GAS FIRE!

 

[ree]

OP,
There's most likely a flue liner in place - why? Because the loose brick inserts below the lintel would have been previously leaking fumes with out a liner installed.
No matter what: the fire surround must be removed and all loose brickwork removed. Any open perps or beds must be pointed.

When the existing fire is removed (by a Gas Safe) look up the flue and you will probably see the tail end of a metal liner.

Any new gas or solid fuel appliance installation would need the opinion of a HETAS.

As regards the damp work and plastering i'll answer that in the appropriate forum.

 

[ScottishGasMan]

Well i really don't think we did our homework on this at all.

Just throwing the costs together of the damp proofing work, a fire install (& materials), furnishing etc etc,

Story short, i think we're going to just have to go with the current fire taken out, expose the recess & leave it as that (no fire installed).

You'll still need a Gas Safe engineer to remove the current fire and make safe. So ask them their opinion on the chimney system/fireplace opening for future referance, the gas pipe can be left in place capped safely (so long as the Builders opening isn't sealed over) And maybe next year you can go ahead with getting a new fire installed.

At least you have heating in the room as it is so you wont freeze through the winter, and its amazing what a full replaster and careful decoration (sealing skirtings etc) can do reducing drafts and keeping the heat in.

 

[FiremanT]

There's most likely a flue liner in place - why? Because the loose brick inserts below the lintel would have been previously leaking fumes with out a liner installed.

You would think so, wouldn't you. But the cracks were probably only revealed whren the plaster was stripped

When the existing fire is removed (by a Gas Safe) look up the flue and you will probably see the tail end of a metal liner.
Any new gas or solid fuel appliance installation would need the opinion of a HETAS.

Are you reffering to the usanbility of the liner.? For a gas fire, we have to be sure that the existing liner will last the life of the new appliance. Which generally means it comes out. It is not a requirement to fit a liner for a gas fire, subject to a smoke test, flue length and condition

As regards the damp work and plastering i'll answer that in the appropriate forum.

OP: Have you reposted in the building forum?

 

[ree]

The cracks may have only been revealed when the plaster was stripped but my point is if no liner is in place then the fumes should have been well noticeable to the previous owners.
If the previous owners were aware of leaking fumes, and thats why they didn't use the appliance, and then sold the house with the chimney breast in that condition then there's not much to say.
Whoever installed the fire surround and shrunk the builder's opening wasn't doing anyone any favors.

I'm referring to looking up the flue and probably seeing a liner - nothing else. Many HETAS are gas safe and its obviously implied that, when giving an opinion, a HETAS would respect all the appropriate Regs - just as i would but, in this thread, i feel no need to rehearse any of them.

"It is not a requirement to fit a liner for a gas fire" - who said it was?
But AAMOI, certain gas fire Mfr's do require liners for specific appliances - not that its relevant here.

 

[thetotalnovice]

Wow, a lot of replies since i went to bed. I'll try address a few comments in bullet form as it may be easier?

• No, I didn't & don't expect it to cost less than £100.
  
• Fireman - we are considering abandoning the idea due to the total cost. Like i said, we really didn't do our homework here. We are soon going to be paying for the damp proofing, new joists & flooring for both living room & hallway, skirting, the carpeting, decorating, furnishing, carpeting of hallway & stairs & landing. I'm not trying to give a sob story here, far from it. We all have problems in life. But I just don't see our budget stretching to accommodate a fire installation (& by installation i mean the cost of the fire, materials & install). Maybe one day in years to come, but not any time soon i think.
• Are you talking about the cracks on the chimney breast? Yeah we only saw those once everything was stripped back.
  
• ree - if you're questioning the honesty of the previous owners then we really don't want to be going down that road. The only reason we didn't take them to court over other things they hadn't declared was because we couldn't afford the solicitor costs @£209/hr.

 

[FiremanT]

The cracks may have only been revealed when the plaster was stripped but my point is if no liner is in place then the fumes should have been well noticeable to the previous owners.
If the previous owners were aware of leaking fumes, and thats why they didn't use the appliance, and then sold the house with the chimney breast in that condition then there's not much to say.
Whoever installed the fire surround and shrunk the builder's opening wasn't doing anyone any favors.

I'm referring to looking up the flue and probably seeing a liner - nothing else. Many HETAS are gas safe and its obviously implied that, when giving an opinion, a HETAS would respect all the appropriate Regs - just as i would but, in this thread, i feel no need to rehearse any of them.

"It is not a requirement to fit a liner for a gas fire" - who said it was?
But AAMOI, certain gas fire Mfr's do require liners for specific appliances - not that its relevant here.

Ree: I am sorry if I offended you. That wasn't he intent, amd re-reading my post doesn't give me any clue as to why you appear to be offended. You did appear to be confient there would be a liner. I wasn't, and I was merely pointing out that it would have to come out anyway. The OP asked (if I understand his post correcty) if it was a simple case of droppimg a liner down. I was merely pointing out that a liner may not be neccessary. I also added the regular caveats. The only gas fires which REQUIRE a liner, AFAIAA, are some amongst the ranges offerred by the seriously expensive top end gear, like Dru.

The problem with not expanding slighty on your points is that you are talking to the end user. By NOT expanding, you can end up endorsing (in their mind) their misconceptions

 

[thetotalnovice]

To be honest i think if we were going to have one, i would want a new liner anyway.
I guess nobody can know anything about a previous liner installed as nobody had anything to do with it (not any of us anyway).

And also i would expect a company to use a new one regardless as they surely wouldn't be able to guarantee a liner installed by any company other than themselves?