Help - Down-lighters to a concrete ceiling! - fire rated??

[chrispx]

Hi everyone,

We have been renting for some time and how just found out that we are able to buy the ground floor flat we live in..

We are wanting to put down lighters in, but have concrete ceilings. We are happy to put a false ceiling up (wooden battens or metal frame + plasterboard), however when I heard someone that we might need to put in fire rated down lighters because we are in the lower flat, but this means the height reduction from the ceiling will need to be almost 6 inches!, rather than just 3. Does any one know if we do need fire rated??? I looked up building regs online, but couldn't find much/anything, other than timings for how long a floor should withstand fire.. but as ours in concrete it should be pretty good so surely we dont need fire rated fittings do we???

Thank you in advance for any help!

PS..!!>> Just to throw another option in. We were going to use LED lamps instead of the standard or we can even just fit LED fittings.. any way to get downlighters... but i just want to make sure i know what options there are as I would prefer (for cost).. non-led fittings, non-fire rated, with LED lamps.

Thanks.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

You are going to be restricted by the space in the ceiling void anyway, even using the standard non-fire rated downlighter would require more than a void of 75mm.
As you are breaking in to the ceiling, therefore effecting the protection against the spread of fire(and smoke). I would strongly advise the use of fire rated fittings, but you are going to have problems without dropping the ceiling significantly.
Also you must consider passage of sound and moisture.

 

[chrispx]

Thanks for the reply.. Our flat has no void unfortunately though, it is literally just a solid concrete ceiling. The existing light (pendant) has been put in (from what i can see) by taking out a circle of concrete, putting in a box and then chasing the cables in a conduit across the ceiling, so the only space we have for putting the downlights in will be whatever we drop the ceiling by.

Please see image below..

As we are not going to drill into the concrete (apart from to suspend the ceiling maybe) then do you think we still need fire-rated fittings?



Thanks

Untitled

• chrispx
• 29 Apr 2012
• 1

 

[1john]

I think you need to check with the manufacturers instructions as to how much clearance the require above the fitting, LED lights give off heat too. I cannot see the need however for fire rated downlights as the concrete ceiling above your suspended one will be the fire break.

Wouldn't it be easier to find a nice central light btw, it sounds like you have a good budget for one considering the costs of materials, plaster and or course how ever many spot lights you require?

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Building regulations state:
"If a fire separating element (your ceiling) is to be effective, then every joint or imperfection of fit, or opening to allow services to pass through the element(your ceiling) should be adequately protected."

The degree of protection would depend on the type of dwelling on height of dwellings from ground level and the degree of protection the elements of the structure required.
Even though the compartment has a concrete sub ceiling/floor, it will still react to high temperatures. In your case as in many I would either recommend to forget downlights or provide protection against the spread of fire.

 

[flameport]

Fire rated fittings are not required.

Regardless of that, you will still require more than 75mm of space between the old and new ceilings. Most manufacturers state 150mm.

If you use LEDs, they probably won't fit into 75mm space anyway, as plenty of LED lamps are longer than that before you add the lampholder.

You will either have to lower the ceiling by at least 150mm, or use other types of lighting.

 

[studentspark]

Personally I would not want to loose any room space, by lowering the ceiling.
I would look for a different way to light your room.

 

[seasickstevie]

Personally I would not want to loose any room space...

But the OP hasn't stated what is the height of room. Just because it's a flat with concrete ceilings doesn't mean they're low ceilings.
I would think that as there's plenty of lateral space, and I assume there's no plan to use insulation (there isn't any presently) and the concrete floor/ceiling isn't going to melt or catch fire, then if using LEDs which don't exactly get hot, a degree of common sense should be used.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

But the OP hasn't stated what is the height of room. Just because it's a flat with concrete ceilings doesn't mean they're low ceilings.

No the OP didn't but seem to express a concern over dropping the ceiling more than 3 inch!

I would think that as there's plenty of lateral space,

What advantage would lateral space have in this instance, when fitting downlights?

and I assume there's no plan to use insulation (there isn't any presently) and the concrete floor/ceiling isn't going to melt or catch fire, then if using LEDs which don't exactly get hot

Although LEDs don't dissipate as much heat as the standard halogens, there is nothing to say one day, that halogen lamps won't be used and the issue is spread of fire/smoke through the broken element of the ceiling, not the fire risk of the lamp(Although should be considered).

 

[RF Lighting]

No it isn't.

The ciling is currently the concrete slab. This provides the fire break between the flats.

If someone puts some plasterboard below the concrete, it doesn't matter how much they swiss cheese it, it will not affect the fire performance of the concrete slab.

You can get downlighter fittings which will not take halogen lamps, or you could use a dedicated LED fitting such as the halers LED downlighters (which are brilliant by the way)

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

No it isn't.

The ciling is currently the concrete slab. This provides the fire break between the flats.

Can we say that for certain, there could possible be common services, ducts and voids, between the two. Not only ceiling but also walls.

 

[RF Lighting]

Well what ever the state of the existing fire compartmentalising, putting up some plasterboard with holes in it isn't going to make it any worse.