Help Please tiles coming off bath panel

[happyhero]

My friend asked me to help him tile his bathroom as although not tilers both of us have done some reasonable tiling jobs together for family and friends, so we thought we would give it a go.

He got the tiles and adhesive from his local tile shop. The tiles are quite big, 900mm x 350mm and we checked we got the right adhesive that would support the weight of the tiles we were using and is meant for bathrooms.

He wanted a tiled removable panel for the side of the bath.

We were advised that if we wanted to tile a bath panel we should buy 18mm ply WBP so that it is rigid and prime it first.

We primed it with Bal primer and tiled it about 4 hours later although the primer dried quite quickly.

My friend wanted the panel (about 1700mm long) to be removable so that he could gain access to the plumbing if there was a problem in the future as that would be the only way to get to the pipes/connections, so we primed and tiled the panel on the floor but when we came back to grout it about 3 days later, we moved it (very carefully holding it about 1/3 of the way in each end to stop it trying to flex) into the bathroom to do this and found that one or 2 tiles were loose.

Some parts were stuck well but others not, in fact it felt like the tile would snap when we lifted the loose end because it stuck so well at the other end. So we used a scraper to drive in the fixed end to get the tile off. When we got it off we found that the adhesive was stuck to the wood but came off easily off most of the tile so now we are not confident about the other ones (total off 4 tiles on the panel as they are so big and the bottom ones are cut down so that the panel is about 1 and 2/2 tiles high) so we are thinking we have to start at square one again.

Any ideas what is wrong please, what have we done wrong?

Was it because we moved it, in which case how can you make a removable panel if it cannot be moved?

Or was it because the tiles are so big and even 18mm will flex when moved?

Why did the adhesive come off the tile instead of the wood, I would have thought if anything the wood would have been the problem and the adhesive would have come off that?

Should we have done something else to the wood, we did test it before on a scrap piece of ply without any primer and a broken tile and it seemed to stick so well?

Another slight problem we are having is that the panel sticks out more than we would like, we did measure everything but the adhesive is probably 1 or2mm or so thicker than we expected and the whole thing is probably 4mm more than we expected ( with slight imperfections under the poly bath the frame did not sit as tight as we hoped) this may not sound a lot but it would look better if it was a bit less, but what could we use, surely there is nothing rigid enough that is less than 18mm, obviously a thinner panel would solve our thickness problem?

Any help or advice appreciated.

 

[Richard C]

He got the tiles and adhesive from his local tile shop. The tiles are quite big, 900mm x 350mm and we checked we got the right adhesive that would support the weight of the tiles we were using and is meant for bathrooms.

What make & type of adhesive was it? What tiles are they & how thick?

We were advised that if we wanted to tile a bath panel we should buy 18mm ply WBP so that it is rigid and prime it first.

That’s poor advice, ply is timber & timber is not dimensionally stable when wet; although this doesn’t sound like your problem as the tiles will fall off after you start using the bath. You should have used 12mm cement based (Aquapanel or similar) tile backer board supported over a timber frame.

We primed it with Bal primer and tiled it about 4 hours later although the primer dried quite quickly.

Which BAL primer & did you prime it both sides?

Or was it because the tiles are so big and even 18mm will flex when moved?

It won’t flex unduly if your careful with it but they are very large tiles; I bet the panel weighs a bloody ton!

Why did the adhesive come off the tile instead of the wood, I would have thought if anything the wood would have been the problem and the adhesive would have come off that?

Need detailed answers regarding the tiles, primer & adhesive to answer that one.

Should we have done something else to the wood, we did test it before on a scrap piece of ply without any primer and a broken tile and it seemed to stick so well?

Again, you shouldn’t have used wood; 12mm cement based tile backer board supported over a timber frame.

 

[tpt]

Richard - Assuming its ready mixed adhesive do you think it may have skinned over? tiling these kind if things with loads of cuts can take ages!

 

[happyhero]

Hi Richard thanks for all that help, much appreciated, I had to phone my friend to get some of the info but here goes.

The tiles are ceramic, definitely not porcelain, they have a glass layer finish and about 9/10mm thick and yes the panel does weigh a bloody ton.

The adhesive is Kera Koll H40 Eco tenaflex and says it is even ok for swimming pools.

No we only primed the fixing side, why would you prime both sides?

We used Bal primer, it just says on it Bal primer for preparing surfaces prior to tiling, coloured for easy application, water based, rapid drying, so I think it is a basic tiling primer not spealised for a particular job etc.

We are now thinking of doing what you advise but have a few questions more if possible.

We see backerboard and Aqua panel, what is the difference and what should we use (not used it before)?

Does it need any preperation, any priming any tape over joints etc?

These panels seem to be 1200mm maximum so any ideas how would go about making this into a 1700mm panel or should we avoid that (bearing in mind it will be the only way to access the pipes/connections in future)?

Bearing in mind we were hoping to make a panel could we tile this aqua panel/backerboard on the floor and then move it with it being only 12mm etc?

We were hoping to make the panel and tile it and then fit it in place. Then grout and silicon the edges so that the silicon would be cut for access and use 4 mirror type screws ( those things with chrome screw on caps) to hold the panel in place, so that you just cut the silicon and undo the screws for access. The problem is that it would have to be 2 boards joined them being 1200mm max, ie more problems.

Help!!!!

 

[Richard C]

The adhesive is Kera Koll H40 Eco tenaflex and says it is even ok for swimming pools.

The fact that it’s suitable for swimming pools is irrelevant, most cement powder adhesives are. It’s not necessarily an indication of quality or suitability either as you have a flexible bath panel not a solid concrete swimming pool. KeraKoll is not one I’m familiar with, TBH I’ve never heard of it. I’ve not been able to gather much info about the spec but it looks like powder cement based flexible adhesive, can you confirm? Certainly a tub ready mix would not be suitable. It doesn’t seem to be generally available from any of the suppliers I’ve used before, where did you get it from?

There are many well known quality trade adhesives available (I use BAL) so It’s strange you’ve ended up with this one; cheap own brand & DIY products are mostly crap & you should always avoid those.

No we only primed the fixing side, why would you prime both sides?

Because it’s wood & wood will expand when it absorbs moisture; if moisture gets into the back of the ply, it will expand causing it to warp & there go your tiles; hence the reason ply is not suitable as a tile base for bath panels or walls for that matter. I only ever use WBP ply for floors either replacement or overboarding & acrylic priming (sealing) the reverse side & edges is standard practice. But, as I said before, this isn’t the cause of your problem which seems to be poor adhesion to the tile; a problem with moisture affecting the bath panel would only appear sometime after it was in use. It all points to the suitability of the adhesive for the tiles but other possible causes are adhesive mix too dry, adhesive bed too thin, pot life & you allowed the adhesive to “skin”; you also need a large format trowel for tiles that size, what size trowel was used?

We used Bal primer, it just says on it Bal primer for preparing surfaces prior to tiling, coloured for easy application, water based, rapid drying, so I think it is a basic tiling primer not spealised for a particular job etc.

Yes but the need for priming depends on the surface. You should always follow the manufacturers instructions regarding primer; no idea what Kera Koll recommend but let’s say you were using a BAL flexy powder adhesive over a ply floor, you would not prime; BAL technical advice is not to prime a ply tile base.

We are now thinking of doing what you advise but have a few questions more if possible.
We see backerboard and Aqua panel, what is the difference and what should we use (not used it before)?

You need to use a cement based backer board such as Aquapanel or Hardibacker as these will have inherent rigidity without the need for a support backing.

Does it need any preperation, any priming any tape over joints etc?

Tape the joints but don’t prime, just remove any dust; tile with a flexible powder cement based adhesive – this time use BAL, Aedex, Mapei etc.

These panels seem to be 1200mm maximum so any ideas how would go about making this into a 1700mm panel or should we avoid that (bearing in mind it will be the only way to access the pipes/connections in future)?
Bearing in mind we were hoping to make a panel could we tile this aqua panel/backerboard on the floor and then move it with it being only 12mm etc? We were hoping to make the panel and tile it and then fit it in place. Then grout and silicon the edges so that the silicon would be cut for access and use 4 mirror type screws ( those things with chrome screw on caps) to hold the panel in place, so that you just cut the silicon and undo the screws for access. The problem is that it would have to be 2 boards joined them being 1200mm max, ie more problems.

You must support the board edges with a timber support frame behind. Personally, I don’t like tiled bath panels & attempting to construct a removable one with such large/heavy tiles is always going to be a challenge. You would be better to consider constructing the bath panel in situ with a removable access panel for services access (I use Aquapanel for mine); it’s going to be much lighter, easier to handle & with less risk of damage when removed.

 

[foxhole]

In my opinion making the panel removable is pointless since you only need to access in the event of a tap change/leak which does not happen often enough to warrant a removable panel. If you must then a small hatch left in the aqua panel can be tiled over with a single tile [given the large size you have], then just keep a couple of spare tiles, if access is required break the tile covering access and replace when finished under the bath.

 

[JohnD]

I like having a removable panel.