Hollow wall anchors

[aveatry]

Has anyone used these and know where I can get them

I like the idea that you do not have to drill such a big hole as you do with toggle anchors. I dont mind drilling a hole its just that toggle anchors need such a big one.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

AFAIK not available in the UK (note the American accent). We have this sort, though:

Available in different sizes for different wall thicknesses (most domestics would need 32 to 45mm length). Ideally needs a setting tool for best fix (this is a Spit one, other brands available):

Go for better quality fixings such as Rawl, Fischer, Spit, etc rather than cheap own-brand ones

What exactly is the problem with pre-drilling a 5mm hole?

 

[aveatry]

Yes I have been discussing those on another thread. But I liked the look of the American ones because the flip over arm gives a wider backing than the umbrella ones and the American ones look like they may sit below the surface of the plaster too. The flip over arm is similar in size to a spring toggle but my problem with a spring toggle is that for an M5 toggle you need a 15mm hole, then that 5 mm toggle bolt has all that extra space to wiggle around.
I am fitting a towel radiator so the brackets only have a small footprint on the wall so I don't like the idea of a 15mm hole weakening the plasterboard behind each bracket. If I was fitting a batten or something it would not matter.
I am going with toggles because the hollow wall anchors sit proud of the surface which means the rad bracket will not sit flat on the wall and will also only be sitting on the penny size head of the hollow wall fitting. Which is why I liked the look of the American ones because I think they can be screwed in flush with the surface and they have a toggle size backing without a big hole that a toggle needs.

 

[rsgaz]

because the hollow wall anchors sit proud of the surface

Only by a quarter of a mm BTW.

https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/...it-to-thick-plasterboard.497781/#post-4091817

Those American ones still have a flange, so would be no different IMHO.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

YBut I liked the look of the American ones because the flip over arm gives a wider backing than the umbrella ones and the American ones look like they may sit below the surface of the plaster too.

As RSGas said the American ones still have a flange, so just like an umbrella or a "curly-whirly" (Redi-driva) they will sit above the surface slightly. Pull them in really hard and you might end up having to repair cracks in the skim (which is true for all these types of fasteners). And as for wider backing, an umbrella pulls in four ways, not two. I've used them (umbrellas) to install load-bearing shelves in shops, etc as well as at home for a few years. Properly installed they carry a substantial load and don't pull-out (in fact they can be a beggar to get out at all unless you know the trick). They are also cheap, and more to the point, readily available in the UK. I wouldn't have toggles or curly-whirlies (or anything looking remotely like them) if they were given these days - not only do they need a big hole, but neither will carry as much weight as an umbrella fixing

There are two other types of fixings which can do the job - the GripIt, which you won't consider because they require too large a hole, and the expensive Snap Toggle, which is a more modern nylon version of the American fixings you so like. You may find this video useful as an indicator of the relative strengths and weaknesses of the various fixings available

 

[aveatry]

Useful info there rsgaz, I have done loads of diy over many years but hollow walls are new to me since one of my children brought themselves a new build
If I was to use the American ones called hafele E-Z toggle I would drill first and wouldn't use their self drill feature because i think it produces too much of a break out on the back. Because of the screw part on the flange they look like they would pull under the surface just enough to be flush. Maybe with the umbrella ones I could cut away the skim coat - being careful not to cut the paper and weaken it

 

[rsgaz]

I wouldn't have ... ... curly-whirlies

Couldn't agree more. They have so many downsides. I would sooner use a good quality red plug and normal no8 screw over those awful things.

My fusebox is held up with 4 of those. I noticed one of them wasn't done up all the way when I last had the cover off. I tried to tighten it, the fixing just rotated in the wall, it had already chewed up the plasterboard too much. One did the same trying to undo it, without the screw coming out of the fixing. And the two 'good' ones, as you try to undo the screw, the fixing starts to back out of the wall before the screw has come all the way out.

It hasn't fallen off the wall, no. But all 4 have issues. A total bodge. Modern house building is "Chuck it all in as quick as possible, get yer monies and run."

 

[rsgaz]

pull under the surface just enough to be flush.

What does the back of the bracket look like? Any kind of recess at all?

Or maybe is it one of those two part brackets, where a small bracket goes on first, then the actual bracket fits over it and pulls up tight using an allen key, therefore the slight sticking out of the flange won't matter.

 

[aveatry]

AS for strength I came across this

which was interesting. Go to 1min 30 and see the M6 x37 rawlplug umbrellas failed at 240lbs and the last test the 5x50 spring toggles failed at 387lb. Even with a big 15mm hole I was impressed by the spring toggle

 

[aveatry]

The brackets are the same as these https://www.amazon.co.uk/Brackets-Heated-Radiators-Universal-Curved/dp/B00A3OX30M and have a flat bottom and are about 30mm diameter. I think if they were not sitting fully flat on the wall they wouldn't look right or be as strong.

 

[aveatry]

With the spring toggle I was thinking of using a 12mm deep collar to take up the slack in the 15mm hole. Perhaps 10 15mm M5 washers stacked up and glued together if they would be the correct size.

 

[rsgaz]

M6 x37 rawlplug umbrellas failed at 240lbs and the last test the 5x50 spring toggles failed at 387lb

I certainly don't doubt the strength of spring toggles. I just don't like their sloppiness in the hole, as you've mentioned. With something heavy, they will always slip down to the bottom of the 15mm hole. In some applications, having a bit of adjustment after might come in handy, but not in your case, there won't be any, it will just be at the bottom regardless!

And also, if you ever take it off in future (i.e. to decorate), the spring toggle falls down inside the wall.

Perhaps 10 15mm M5 washers stacked up and glued together if they would be the correct size.

That's an interesting strategy. Take some pictures for us please if you go down this route.

'Normal' M5 washers are 10mm diameter. 'Large series' is 12.5mm. "Form G" washers are extra large diameter and have a 15mm outside diameter and a nominal thickness of 1.6mm, so that could work.

http://www.dinstock.com/useruploads/files/plain_washers_bs4320.pdf

 

[Deleted member 174758]

AS for strength I came across this which was interesting. Go to 1min 30 and see the M6 x37 rawlplug umbrellas failed at 240lbs and the last test the 5x50 spring toggles failed at 387lb. Even with a big 15mm hole I was impressed by the spring toggle

240lb = 109kg. So how much does your radiator weigh? As you stated above toggles require a big hole, so I for one can't use them in a lot of instances. In the past I've had toggles pull through where the back of the PB was damp for some reason. And as RSG says, if you ever need to take the rad off the wall you'll loose the toggle

I'll be honest and say that personally to hold a rad I'd far rather cut-out a section of PB and install a timber patress then restore the PB (which is how I always approach upper cabs in kitchens) if only because it gives a bit of leeway to move stuff in the future. I'd also far rather spread the load over four or more fixings that will carry 100kg each than one which will carry the lot if only because I know how plasterboard is installed (and how odds and sods boards can be used when they are running out of material because the spread will hide it)

 

[foxhole]

Similar to those available here.
https://www.ffx.co.uk/tools/product...MI7fnepMmB4AIVCLTtCh2J8Qn-EAQYAyABEgJRo_D_BwE

Problem I found though was the dust in the plasterboard could foul the hinge preventing them from turning when they are thru the board, they can jam at wrong angle preventing both use and removal.

 

[foxhole]

Yes I have been discussing those on another thread. But I liked the look of the American ones because the flip over arm gives a wider backing than the umbrella ones and the American ones look like they may sit below the surface of the plaster too. The flip over arm is similar in size to a spring toggle but my problem with a spring toggle is that for an M5 toggle you need a 15mm hole, then that 5 mm toggle bolt has all that extra space to wiggle around.
I am fitting a towel radiator so the brackets only have a small footprint on the wall so I don't like the idea of a 15mm hole weakening the plasterboard behind each bracket. If I was fitting a batten or something it would not matter.
I am going with toggles because the hollow wall anchors sit proud of the surface which means the rad bracket will not sit flat on the wall and will also only be sitting on the penny size head of the hollow wall fitting. Which is why I liked the look of the American ones because I think they can be screwed in flush with the surface and they have a toggle size backing without a big hole that a toggle needs.

Foot print of fixing is not a concern the rad fixings you are using with hide all .