How do I know if my water softener is working?
- Thread starter zeroseven
- Start date
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Softus said:I see your point. There really is no way to tell whether or not it's working. It's everybody else's fault, not yours.zeroseven said:
Course it my fault. I pay good money for something to be fitted and it doesn't work
Silly me
Your attempt at sarcasm doesn't hide the fact that you failed to notice that something you paid a lot of money for wasn't working.zeroseven said:
For seven years.
That's nobody's fault other than yours.
And if you were so eminently capable of not noticing, why did you buy it?
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zeroseven said:
For £1200 , I would have definitely noticed.
Did you ask anyone to demonstrate it?zeroseven said:
Did you ask anyone how often it should be serviced?
Did you ask any questions about it?
There's a fine line between trust and abject stupidity.
However, seeing as you're not about to see the light, you might want to go and check on anything else you've had installed on trust and assumed to be working.
Zeroseven wrote
Your heating system has nothing to do with the water softner working or not , though softened water should not be added to the heating system. The base exchange softners replace calcium and magnesium ions with sodium. This has the tendency to increase the corrosivness of the water because when sodium carbonate is heated it decomposes to carbon dioxide and caustic soda.
What type of problems have you had with the heating side ?.
Your heating system has nothing to do with the water softner working or not , though softened water should not be added to the heating system. The base exchange softners replace calcium and magnesium ions with sodium. This has the tendency to increase the corrosivness of the water because when sodium carbonate is heated it decomposes to carbon dioxide and caustic soda.
What type of problems have you had with the heating side ?.
There is a test kit you can purchase which will tell you if it is working, You can try an easy test though. Get a bowl of water that should be soft, get a bar of soap, try to create a lather with the soap in the water, if it creates a lather without scum, its working, if there is scum its not.zeroseven said:
The mc 250 had a hard water bleed valve which may be open,
In my experience, people that have single cylinder electrically operated water softeners rarely have truly soft water as they will always allow some hardwater through, especially whilst regenerating.
I often come across people who have this type of machine and can't say if its working or not, and don't know how to find out, its down to the company who sold it to you not doing their job to ensure you are satisfied.
I have many customers and they know instantly if the softener fails to work, even if its only a small that of hardness getting through.
In 27 years of selling water softeners, I have never scrapped a water softener that I have supplied and maintained. They are the best thing since sliced bread
if the are working Will save you so much money they should pay for themselves in around 4-5 years. Balenza said:
I am sorry but you are wrong
There is nothing wrong with putting soft water in a heating system. My system has been working for many years with soft water in to no ill effect.
Some boiler manufacturers say not to fill with soften water but more recently the by laws for installing new boilers state that an effective form of scale prevention should be installed in all areas where hard water is prevalent, the only true scale prevention devise is a WATER SOFTENER.
The addition of an inhibitor in the indirect side of the system should prevent any form of corrosion that can occur with some waters
I don’t know if there is a limit to posting size, but I have a copy if it fails to post.
If there is a limit, can it be posted elsewhere?
The MC250 (Electronic) water softener is very easy to check if it is working.
(1) Check what is displayed on the electronic module.
If the unit shows two digits, representing the water hardness in degrees Clarke, then the valve is in the ‘Service’ position when, if all is working correctly, is supplying softened water to the house.
Any number 1-6, preceded by ‘r’ indicates the valve is positioned at various stages of regeneration.
‘Ac’ indicates that the power supply to the unit has failed within the last few hours, (battery backup)
E2 indicates a disc reading positional error has occurred.
(2) With the unit in its normal ‘Service’ position, draw softened water through the unit from an associated tap. Whilst doing this, check to see if the digits on the display of the electronic module are ‘swirling’. This check indicates that the internal turbine wheel, which measures water flow, is spinning freely and the result is being read by the electronic module.
(2) See if liquid in the brine tank is filling and emptying during regeneration.
Two types of valve have been fitted. The earlier type fills the brine tank with water as the last cycle in the ‘regeneration’ sequence, before the valve returns to the ‘Service’ position, which is its normal operating state.
The second, most recent valve, with an Inspection date label of 2000 onwards, leaves only salt in the tank, without liquid, when in ‘Service’. This type partially fills the tank with water immediately regeneration is instigated, then leaves the salt to soak for 30 minutes before the brine solution is aspirated into the softener pressure vessel to regenerate the resin. Otherwise, the operation of both valves is identical.
Fault Finding.
Depending on the fault condition, water may or may not be running from the drain or overflow pipes of the softener. For the valve to rotate, mains water must be applied to the input hose. The small electric motor on the top of the valve requires water pressure on the valve’s input line before it can change the valve’s position. The motor just helps it along!
Never try to run the valve without mains water pressure as this can cause the motor to strip the teeth on the associated valve gearwheel located under the top plate.
If all appears normal, with the valve displaying the Clarke number set on installation, empty the salt tank of liquid until less than half full, to prevent overflow, then press the membrane of the keypad directly above the water droplet symbols. This initiates a manual regeneration. The presence of salt at this time is not important as only the cycle of operation is being checked.
The valve should rotate clockwise, as seen on the valve shaft protruding through the metal top plate, then stop, with the display showing any of the previous messages apart from ‘Ac’, as the initial Clarke number displayed shows that power is applied.
At this stage, the most common fault to be shown is ‘E2’ when the disc position cannot be ascertained by the electronic unit. The Printed Circuit Board (PCB) on the left side of the valve, as viewed from the front has a pair of sensors, located either side of the valve’s top disc. This disc has slots located around its periphery and the sensors give an output when the disc is in alignment with them. This PCB often becomes corroded, due to salt splashing, and both the track and wires become open circuit. The PCB can be removed by removing its two securing screws, then sliding directly outwards through the cut-away in the valve shroud provided for this purpose.
Repair the track or wire connections as appropriate with a small soldering iron, the cover the outer side with Araldite or silicon compound to prevent further corrosion. Refit the board, ensuring that the two sensors are parallel and located either side of the disc.
The next most common fault, which is indicated by the digits not swirling whilst softened water is drawn, is due to magnets in the turbine wheel rusting away. This fault is not indicated on the display, but the unit never regenerates automatically but responds normally to a manual initiation.
The turbine wheel is located within the outlet pipe moulding of the valve. A Hall sensor, located on the outside, is triggered by the two magnets as the turbine wheel rotates due to water flow and thus measures the amount of softened water drawn through the softener.
Unfortunately, on many of these wheels, the magnets are not sealed and, in consequence rust away quite quickly. As the magnets rust, they also expand, cracking the moulding of the wheel and destroying it. This either prevents the wheel turning or stops producing pulses to the Hall sensor. This causes the electronic module to assume that no water is being used, so it never regenerates, irrespective of the Clarke number setting.
The wheel, which is available from Culligan for approximately £5, can be replaced simply. Firstly, set the unit to by-pass, to remove all water pressure, then disconnect the outlet hose. Remove the large Red clip from the outlet connection (It just pulls outwards) and pull the outlet union free.
Remove the internal white plastic turbine mounting, which is simply clipped into place. The wheel spins on a stainless steel shaft and should rotate freely with a gentle blowing on its side. Examine the wheel and replace as necessary. A dab of Araldite over the clean end of each magnet helps seal it for life.
All other faults entail leakage of either brine or water.
This valve is not unique to Waterside (Culligan) and service information is available on the Web. For a very similar valve in the USA. The main difference is that the American valve is positioned by micro-switches which are operated by a cam plate in place of the slotted disc and optical sensor on the Waterside valve.
See the following site (PDF) for cleaning the Brine Valve (Section 3B) and disassembling and lubricating the main rotary valve (Section 5B)
http://www.kenmorewater.com/website/customer-assist/manuals/625.348471.pdf
This above manual also gives a good incite into the general operation of most water softeners.
The slotted disc, on the outside of the valve, but partialy obscured by the metal mounting plate, is marked with triangles around its periphery containing the following letters.
‘F’ (Fill) 11 minutes with ’r1’ displayed: ‘Soak’ 30 minutes r2 displayed: ‘BR’ (Brine Rinse) 50 minutes with r4 displayed: ‘BW’ (Brine Wash) 3.5 minutes with r5 displayed : ‘R’ (Rinse) 2.5 minutes with r6 displayed: ‘S’ (Service) until next regeneration with set Clarke number displayed.. The arrow adjacent to the rearmost edge of the valve body, should align with these letters at each position, which is held for the approximate time indicated.
With the older valve r2 is not displayed as the salt is soaking in the tank whilst awaiting the next regeneration. With this valve, the sequence starts with a valve movement from ‘S’ to ‘BR’, which regenerates the resin.
The remainder is self explanatory.
Good luck and good servicing.
Kayball
If there is a limit, can it be posted elsewhere?
The MC250 (Electronic) water softener is very easy to check if it is working.
(1) Check what is displayed on the electronic module.
If the unit shows two digits, representing the water hardness in degrees Clarke, then the valve is in the ‘Service’ position when, if all is working correctly, is supplying softened water to the house.
Any number 1-6, preceded by ‘r’ indicates the valve is positioned at various stages of regeneration.
‘Ac’ indicates that the power supply to the unit has failed within the last few hours, (battery backup)
E2 indicates a disc reading positional error has occurred.
(2) With the unit in its normal ‘Service’ position, draw softened water through the unit from an associated tap. Whilst doing this, check to see if the digits on the display of the electronic module are ‘swirling’. This check indicates that the internal turbine wheel, which measures water flow, is spinning freely and the result is being read by the electronic module.
(2) See if liquid in the brine tank is filling and emptying during regeneration.
Two types of valve have been fitted. The earlier type fills the brine tank with water as the last cycle in the ‘regeneration’ sequence, before the valve returns to the ‘Service’ position, which is its normal operating state.
The second, most recent valve, with an Inspection date label of 2000 onwards, leaves only salt in the tank, without liquid, when in ‘Service’. This type partially fills the tank with water immediately regeneration is instigated, then leaves the salt to soak for 30 minutes before the brine solution is aspirated into the softener pressure vessel to regenerate the resin. Otherwise, the operation of both valves is identical.
Fault Finding.
Depending on the fault condition, water may or may not be running from the drain or overflow pipes of the softener. For the valve to rotate, mains water must be applied to the input hose. The small electric motor on the top of the valve requires water pressure on the valve’s input line before it can change the valve’s position. The motor just helps it along!
Never try to run the valve without mains water pressure as this can cause the motor to strip the teeth on the associated valve gearwheel located under the top plate.
If all appears normal, with the valve displaying the Clarke number set on installation, empty the salt tank of liquid until less than half full, to prevent overflow, then press the membrane of the keypad directly above the water droplet symbols. This initiates a manual regeneration. The presence of salt at this time is not important as only the cycle of operation is being checked.
The valve should rotate clockwise, as seen on the valve shaft protruding through the metal top plate, then stop, with the display showing any of the previous messages apart from ‘Ac’, as the initial Clarke number displayed shows that power is applied.
At this stage, the most common fault to be shown is ‘E2’ when the disc position cannot be ascertained by the electronic unit. The Printed Circuit Board (PCB) on the left side of the valve, as viewed from the front has a pair of sensors, located either side of the valve’s top disc. This disc has slots located around its periphery and the sensors give an output when the disc is in alignment with them. This PCB often becomes corroded, due to salt splashing, and both the track and wires become open circuit. The PCB can be removed by removing its two securing screws, then sliding directly outwards through the cut-away in the valve shroud provided for this purpose.
Repair the track or wire connections as appropriate with a small soldering iron, the cover the outer side with Araldite or silicon compound to prevent further corrosion. Refit the board, ensuring that the two sensors are parallel and located either side of the disc.
The next most common fault, which is indicated by the digits not swirling whilst softened water is drawn, is due to magnets in the turbine wheel rusting away. This fault is not indicated on the display, but the unit never regenerates automatically but responds normally to a manual initiation.
The turbine wheel is located within the outlet pipe moulding of the valve. A Hall sensor, located on the outside, is triggered by the two magnets as the turbine wheel rotates due to water flow and thus measures the amount of softened water drawn through the softener.
Unfortunately, on many of these wheels, the magnets are not sealed and, in consequence rust away quite quickly. As the magnets rust, they also expand, cracking the moulding of the wheel and destroying it. This either prevents the wheel turning or stops producing pulses to the Hall sensor. This causes the electronic module to assume that no water is being used, so it never regenerates, irrespective of the Clarke number setting.
The wheel, which is available from Culligan for approximately £5, can be replaced simply. Firstly, set the unit to by-pass, to remove all water pressure, then disconnect the outlet hose. Remove the large Red clip from the outlet connection (It just pulls outwards) and pull the outlet union free.
Remove the internal white plastic turbine mounting, which is simply clipped into place. The wheel spins on a stainless steel shaft and should rotate freely with a gentle blowing on its side. Examine the wheel and replace as necessary. A dab of Araldite over the clean end of each magnet helps seal it for life.
All other faults entail leakage of either brine or water.
This valve is not unique to Waterside (Culligan) and service information is available on the Web. For a very similar valve in the USA. The main difference is that the American valve is positioned by micro-switches which are operated by a cam plate in place of the slotted disc and optical sensor on the Waterside valve.
See the following site (PDF) for cleaning the Brine Valve (Section 3B) and disassembling and lubricating the main rotary valve (Section 5B)
http://www.kenmorewater.com/website/customer-assist/manuals/625.348471.pdf
This above manual also gives a good incite into the general operation of most water softeners.
The slotted disc, on the outside of the valve, but partialy obscured by the metal mounting plate, is marked with triangles around its periphery containing the following letters.
‘F’ (Fill) 11 minutes with ’r1’ displayed: ‘Soak’ 30 minutes r2 displayed: ‘BR’ (Brine Rinse) 50 minutes with r4 displayed: ‘BW’ (Brine Wash) 3.5 minutes with r5 displayed : ‘R’ (Rinse) 2.5 minutes with r6 displayed: ‘S’ (Service) until next regeneration with set Clarke number displayed.. The arrow adjacent to the rearmost edge of the valve body, should align with these letters at each position, which is held for the approximate time indicated.
With the older valve r2 is not displayed as the salt is soaking in the tank whilst awaiting the next regeneration. With this valve, the sequence starts with a valve movement from ‘S’ to ‘BR’, which regenerates the resin.
The remainder is self explanatory.
Good luck and good servicing.
Kayball
@Kayball, good description of how to remove turbine mag mate, you forgot to mention that you have to remove the blending valve assembly before you can remove the turbine and bracket,
I know this thread is an old one but I thought I'd add my two pence worth as a service engineer who's been servicing and repairing softeners for 30 odd years, as for the bloke who says his softener hasn't worked for 7 or so years, what a dick, surely if you suspected something was wrong your first point of call should have been Waterside (now Culligan) when it was new, I go to loads of places that complain softener not working, only to find when you get there it's an installation fault or the bye pass valve has been left open, but 7 years on!
I'd also like to clear the call out charge up. The present call out charges are, £85inc vat which includes the first half hour, then it's £20 per quarter hour after that, plus any parts used, I have to say though that I can't remember the last time I charged a customer more than the £85, providing they offer me a coffee and are pleasant I'll do my best for them, if you wind me up, are snotty to me or don't offer me a drink, you'll pay.
haga
I know this thread is an old one but I thought I'd add my two pence worth as a service engineer who's been servicing and repairing softeners for 30 odd years, as for the bloke who says his softener hasn't worked for 7 or so years, what a dick, surely if you suspected something was wrong your first point of call should have been Waterside (now Culligan) when it was new, I go to loads of places that complain softener not working, only to find when you get there it's an installation fault or the bye pass valve has been left open, but 7 years on!
I'd also like to clear the call out charge up. The present call out charges are, £85inc vat which includes the first half hour, then it's £20 per quarter hour after that, plus any parts used, I have to say though that I can't remember the last time I charged a customer more than the £85, providing they offer me a coffee and are pleasant I'll do my best for them, if you wind me up, are snotty to me or don't offer me a drink, you'll pay.
haga
After reomoving Motor unit and checking disc etc. how do I align the motor to the disc (ie time it up?)
Thanks
Thanks
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