how to hang light to a loop-in ceiling rose

[glider26]

Hi,

We've just bought a house were the lighting circuit appears to be a loop-in system, i.e. the ceiling roses also act a junction boxes. The previous owners left pendant lights hanging (no shades). On the ground floor I'd like to replace these with circular and linear groups of GU10 220V lights. Before I buy these, how do I get around the fact that I have these ceiling roses which will inevitably be in the way of the new lights? What is common practice in this case? Am I supposed to take the ceiling rose out and reconnect everything using plastic connectors? Our ceilings are plasterboard.

Any help appreciated.

 

[riveralt]

My first advice would be not to replace your current lights with spotlights - because you will invariably need many more than you have now, they will cost you a lot more to run, they will frequently need replacing and they will not give you the lighting effect you are looking for.

If you still wish to go ahead then you will need to replace the current ceiling roses with either junction boxes or terminal strips enclosed in chocboxes. In either case they must be accessible. While this is feasible with the bedrooms and loft access it becomes much more difficult with downstairs access through the floorboards.

Since spotlights are going to require more holes in your ceiling, for downstairs you could make the current ceiling rose a hole for one of your spotlights and use one of the slimline jbs and push it up into the space before putting the spotlight in its place.

If there is sufficient space in this jb you could use it as a star formation to the other lights in the room. Alternatively you could use this as the start point for the other lights in the room using a loop system again using a jb for each spotlight.

 

[glider26]

Riveralt, thanks for the reply.

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about replacing the pendants with recessed spotlights, just a one-for-one swap of a pendant for something like this bar of four spotlights below (or maybe just 2 GU10's instead of 4). Is there a way of replacing pendants with something a bit more modern like a bar of spots? Or are such lights made to accomodate the exising ceiling rose? Thanks.

Untitled

• glider26
• 2 Jun 2011
• 1

 

[IJWS15]

And

If you install too many you will need to upgrade the wiring and circuit breaker. 6A does not cover many 50w GU 10s.

And when they blow they trip the lighting circuit breaker - every time.

 

[riveralt]

Riveralt, thanks for the reply.

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about replacing the pendants with recessed spotlights, just a one-for-one swap of a pendant for something like this bar of four spotlights below (or maybe just 2 GU10's instead of 4). Is there a way of replacing pendants with something a bit more modern like a bar of spots? Or are such lights made to accomodate the exising ceiling rose? Thanks.

Untitled

• glider26
• 2 Jun 2011
• 1

Okay if you want to replace the standard pendant with the bar style light then I would use one of these for each replacement pendant light.
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ501.html
You will still need to be able to access this but if you make the hole large enough (the new lamp base should cover it) you will be able to slide the ashley jb into the void.

When you replace the pendant with the new lighting system use the jb to continue the live, neutral and earth loops and just run the switch live, neutral and earth connections to the lamp.

As suggested there is a limit to the number of lamps you can have on any 6amp lighting circuit - total around 1380w - so it wouldn't take long for the 50w halogens to quickly build up.

 

[sparkwright]

Most light fittings like you have shown have room inside to accomodate the ceiling rose wiring. You will have to remove the ceiling rose. You may need an extra connector block to accomodate the permanent live loop wires.

 

[Cuchullian]

Hi I suggest buying an Ashley slim line junction box, it is like a choc box but the connectors are in the same profile as a 3 plate , neutral bar, live and switch live to light this will require a hole in the ceiling but most of these fittings have a large base plate. Check lights load as too many and you'll overload circuit, add them up for that circuit i.e. 200 per room X 5 rooms =1000w 6A mcb will be okay up to @1200w .

 

[Lectrician]

What a load of nonsence.

Just swap the lights like for like. Remove the ceiling rose and terminate the cables with terminal blocks inside the base of the new light fitting (they usually even supply you the four you will need).

Ignore joint boxes, j501's, and chocboxes. Not required.

You may well end up with too many lamps on the circuit if you swap many fittings - how many are you thinking?

 

[riveralt]

What a load of nonsence.

Just swap the lights like for like. Remove the ceiling rose and terminate the cables with terminal blocks inside the base of the new light fitting (they usually even supply you the four you will need).

Ignore joint boxes, j501's, and chocboxes. Not required.

Ignore Lectrician's 'nonesence' rant - he got up too early.

The problem with Lectricians proposal is that while some light manufacturers do provide a four terminal block , many don't. Furthermore, those terminal blocks that are supplied are often too small to accommodate the three sets of cables often required for the loop system, especially, if the conductors are sized 1.5mm. So you end up balancing on a ladder holding onto the light, the wires and nothing else while you are trying to fit the conductors into the terminal blocks.

What Lectrician should have said, was that both options are correct with pros and cons for each one.
In broad terms terminals blocks are cheaper but unless you are given the correct size terminal for the cables you will have to fit a new terminal block or add to the ones there and then cover them with either a chocbox (which makes them similar to an Ashley jb)or heaven forbid tape.
Ashley jbs or similar are more expensive and require making a larger hole in the ceiling. But they do make it easier, and safer, to fit.
Your choice.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Untitled

• glider26
• 2 Jun 2011
• 1

You do know that that won't light the room up at all well, don't you....

 

[kai]

Yes, they are very trendy, and putting in LED GU10 substitutes works wonders in a smaller room - In my kitchen, I have that type of light fitting, and have fitted LED GU10 substitutes in them, and that saves on my electric bill as a result. They cost around GBP 6 each from B+Q's.

 

[Lectrician]

What a load of nonsence.

Just swap the lights like for like. Remove the ceiling rose and terminate the cables with terminal blocks inside the base of the new light fitting (they usually even supply you the four you will need).

Ignore joint boxes, j501's, and chocboxes. Not required.

Ignore Lectrician's 'nonesence' rant - he got up too early.

The problem with Lectricians proposal is that while some light manufacturers do provide a four terminal block , many don't. Furthermore, those terminal blocks that are supplied are often too small to accommodate the three sets of cables often required for the loop system, especially, if the conductors are sized 1.5mm. So you end up balancing on a ladder holding onto the light, the wires and nothing else while you are trying to fit the conductors into the terminal blocks.

What Lectrician should have said, was that both options are correct with pros and cons for each one.
In broad terms terminals blocks are cheaper but unless you are given the correct size terminal for the cables you will have to fit a new terminal block or add to the ones there and then cover them with either a chocbox (which makes them similar to an Ashley jb)or heaven forbid tape.
Ashley jbs or similar are more expensive and require making a larger hole in the ceiling. But they do make it easier, and safer, to fit.
Your choice.

Get in the real world.

Nearly all light fittings will supply a fourth terminal, and if they do not, it is not hard to add one with a terminal block. It is absolutely text book.

I have lost count of the amount of times I have changed light fittings, and I have hardly ever had to resort to lifting floor boards to find space for a joint box. I can think of one or two occasions.

IP rated bathroom fittings can sometimes be a PITA, but if you buy your kit from the likes of a DIY shed, then what do you expect....

I did get up early, and off out to work.......perhaps if you did you would soon realise what nonsence you speak. A joint box behind every fitting? Pfft.

I don't often spurl off like this, but honestly, your talking crap.

 

[sparkwright]

Waste of time fitting junction boxes in ceiling voids if the fitting has space to accomodate all the wiring.

For one thing you'd have to cut a hole in the ceiling which may make it difficult to obtain a fixing for the fitting.

Most fittings allow enough space for the wiring.

 

[SelfReliant]

Hello Electricians! I hope you can help me as well. I want to install similar lights to the OP.

I don't have anyone to do it for me and I don't know any electricians. (Anyone in the South Croydon area wanna do a quick job?)

Anyway, I live in a new build flat. It is just over 1 year old. I have attached a photo of the ceiling rose, the new fitting and the instructions.

Are those clear wired clips in the ceiling rose removable? I cannot see/understand how I am supposed to attach one to the other. Is this a simple thing to do?

Any help greatly appreciated.



Many thanks.

Edit: I have attached images but they are not showing?
Maybe a link will work? //www.diynot.com/network/SelfReliant/albums/10273

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Are those clear wired clips in the ceiling rose removable? I cannot see/understand how I am supposed to attach one to the other.

You've lost me completely.

What do you mean?

You remove the rose, and fix the new light where it was.