I’ve just got planning permission. Now what?

[Mottie]

I’ve just been granted planning permission to build a 3 storey, 3 bed house on a piece of land we own on the end of a terrace. I haven’t got a clue what to do next! Dont think I’ll be able to self-manage the whole project - not in a rush to complete it but my initial thoughts are to get someone to do the shell - drains, footings, walls, roof (inc dormer), stairs, floors and then either do or arrange myself, the electrics, plumbing, plastering, ceilings, heating, windows and doors, bathroom, kitchen and decorating etc. Anything missing there?

Is that one way to do things? Is that the sort of job a builder will take on or is it going to be hard to find someone to do just the shell build? It’s already got its own mains electricity supply and meter but for the last 30 years I’ve been using the cold water supply and drainage from the house next door (which we used to own) so I’ll need to get it’s own water and gas supply’s put in.

One other option is to consider selling the land with planning permission. 3 bed houses in that street are going for between £420k and £450k. If I do go ahead with the build, I have the money for the build but don’t know whether I would rent it out or sell it when finished. I can imagine a build will give me plenty if aggro and sleepless nights!

I know I’ve got to get a party wall agreement with my neighbour - part of the deal for him letting me build up against his flank wall was that I build up the firewall and re-do his roof so that he can now have a loft conversion. Presumably I get a solicitor to do that?

Haven’t a clue about anything at the moment - I’ve been thinking of doing this for 20 years or more and now it’s a possibility, I’m still in a state of shock! All suggestions welcome regarding the order of things. Has anyone on here done something similar as a first time project - I’d love to hear how you got on.

 

[noseall]

Look at the cost of utilities connections as well as the build costs.

 

[Mottie]

Another question. The plans which have been passed that were submitted by the architect will have to be more detailed for building regs - not too sure on all that and I assumed that would be included in the fee but apparently not! I've just asked and received this reply.

"Regarding working drawings, I can't remember exactly what we discussed but my fee doesn't cover that. The drawings as they stand you could use to submit with a sheet of notes and structural calculations and drawings ( foundations ,structural steels, roof design ect -engineer) from an engineer, building control may request more detailed information after that. You will also need to apply to your local water authority re sewer connections and run off of rainwater. also utilities -gas, electricity, telecom. Being a new house you will need to comply with more stringent heat loss regulations which I can cover in the notes. That really would be the extent of my involvement."

More costs! Does that seem right - I’m paying £1,800 to the architect for the work which was first submitted as two one-bed flats (against their advice, I know, I know!) and for resubmission as a three bed house. Am I being optimistic expecting that work and detailed building plans for that amount or is that about the going rate?

 

[John D v2.0]

If they're a proper architect and spending a decent time doing actual design including layout to fit with the site and your requirements, then that's about right. If they're just a plan drawer regurgitating the same old formula then it's way over priced. Proper design is expensive, but worth it.

 

[Mottie]

If they're a proper architect and spending a decent time doing actual design including layout to fit with the site and your requirements, then that's about right. If they're just a plan drawer regurgitating the same old formula then it's way over priced. Proper design is expensive, but worth it.

See, I’ve been up from 3:30 this morning worrying about it already and figuratively speaking, the ink's not even dry on the planning permission yet!

Well, it was an odd triangular shaped plot and the house tapers off at the rear so it’s roughly 22ft wide at the front and 17ft at the rear (all other houses in street are 16ft wide) so it wasn’t what I’d call a standard formula. Two architects had already been round in the past and said 'no chance' with planning permission and wouldn’t take it on. This one was recommended to me and she too wasn't hopeful at first but said she'd give it a go if I wanted. She said it would cost what she normally charges for a house plan (£1,800) but that if, after any final submissions and changes, permission was refused, she’d only charge me 50% e.g. £900 which I thought was extremely fair and was an incentive for her to get any plans passed. I did initially want two flats on the plot which she advised against and said was very unlikely (they were refused) compared to a house. She said a two bedroom but I pushed for three and she did a fair bit of liaising with the local authority to get it through. It’s 122 sq metres in total - I’m hoping it’ll cost around £150k to build - optimistic? Anyway, this is what I've ended up with:

 

[John D v2.0]

Looks nice, you'd done well. Seems no internal layout though? Just indicative?

 

[Mottie]

 

[wessex101]

Rather unfortunate that the architect did not provide you with written conditions of engagement so you knew exactly what you were paying for, however £1800 is very cheap especially including the resubmission, and the plans look OK.

How much are they quoting for the Building Regulations plans?

 

[cjard]

I’ve just been granted planning permission to build a 3 storey, 3 bed house on a piece of land we own on the end of a terrace. I haven’t got a clue what to do next! Dont think I’ll be able to self-manage the whole project - not in a rush to complete it but my initial thoughts are to get someone to do the shell - drains, footings, walls, roof (inc dormer), stairs, floors and then either do or arrange myself, the electrics, plumbing, plastering, ceilings, heating, windows and doors, bathroom, kitchen and decorating etc. Anything missing there?

Skirting and decorative flooring is missing from the list. Insulating is too, though you might have been thinking to ball it up into "walls" or "roof", though you then run the risk of an ass job being made of it; maybe you'll do it yourself. Structural flooring will come before stairs, possibly before roof. You've broadly divided it into "first fix someone else, second fix me", though windows will be part of the first fix (before plastering). If you're project managing you'll need to go to site most days, because the workers will need regular steering. Also missing from the list: discharge of planning conditions, and other accessory paperwork/admin, possibly getting a loan if things don't go to budget, getting various professional inputs such as structural engineer and any other yoghurt weavers the planning has called for (bats, newts, trees, contaminated land blah). Services: gas, cable, phone, electricity, water need to be planned pre footings stage really. Consider heating system early on, as if underfloor, you'll need to do some plumbing before pouring the ground slab

Is that one way to do things? Is that the sort of job a builder will take on or is it going to be hard to find someone to do just the shell build?

Many ways of doing things, along the spectrum of total diy (competent person installs aside) through to turnkey "here's a stack of cash, call me in 9 months when it's done". Finances wise, DIY can be a good earner but you need a **** ton of dedication and strong desire not to see the wife for a year (more if you're still working your regular job rather than going into property dev). Turnkey is probably a 10% discount over buying the equivalent house on the open market, though you already had the land and this is a major cost of building bespoke. Main contractor earns you a bit more, project managing individual trades even more.. Main contractor route is probably less hassle, as you don't have the aggro of finding decent tradespeople; your main contractor has this hassle, should already have these relationships (or employ the relevants)

One other option is to consider selling the land with planning permission. 3 bed houses in that street are going for between £420k and £450k

The general rule that the big boys work to is a third for the land, a third for the build and a third profit. They're building in volume and can screw the "third for the build" for all its worth, so your division might be slightly higher in this regard, but your plot should be worth 150 to 200 for a finished result of 450, if you can find someone who wants to throw 200 at building the scheme, for the end discount of 10%

If I do go ahead with the build, I have the money for the build but don’t know whether I would rent it out or sell it when finished.

Consider hiring a tax/financial adviser; there's a hefty capital gains bill to prepare for it you sell, and the government seems to be effectively making things a lot harder work for the BTL crowd - that B can be Build as well as Buy

I can imagine a build will give me plenty if aggro and sleepless nights!

Depends how much of the responsibility you take on, how much free time you have and how much of that time your family demands..

Presumably I get a solicitor to do that?

I thought PWA generally fell within the remit of a relevantly qualified surveyor, not solicitor, but you might well be right to arrange the scope of works to be carried out as part of a signed contract that limits your obligations to a third party

Has anyone on here done something similar as a first time project - I’d love to hear how you got on.

Still doing it, 4 years in; predominantly DIY (was main contractor, but fired him off pre-windows) though when I'm just too knackered or not suitably certificated, I get the relevant trades in. Only put one day a week at it now that I live there; should keep me going for another 2 or so years before I really run out of things to do.. It won't be the last house I build, but the next one I'll either jack the day job in and take up building, or project manage other trades and not pick up the tools (shame, because it's massively enjoyable) because I haven't got the time to do it part time

 

[Mottie]

Thanks. All useful advice. For clarification, I'm currently 'semi retired' and working from the site that will be developed. Obviously once the build commences I will be fully retired so I will have plenty of spare time to be on site and keep an eye on things. I will also be seeking out the tax implications from my accountant. Already it has been suggested that my wife and I could move into it when built for a certain amount of time to make it our main residence which will allow us to reclaim any VAT spent on the build and possibly avoid capital gains tax. I don't know if that is allowed so I will have to take legal advice on that but that wouldn't be a hardship for either of us if it's financially worthwhile. Anyway, that's way down the line and for now I need to get a quotation from several builders for the whole build but I'll need to get buildings regs approval plus a party wall agreement before anything else gets done. Anything else?

 

[cjard]

So, you'll never get to "go home" then..

Keep an eye on your mental state; it takes a long time to become despondent about these things but it kinda sneaks up on you because it's gradual. An endless succession of bullshitting and letdowns from the trades you engage can get you if you're just PMing. If you're more hands on, being overfaced by the sheer enormity of it all is more usually the way it goes. If you're retiring you'll doubtless have lots of time to plan and research and it'll likely be a fun and worthwhile task..

"At the start of any building project, the new self builder is filled with a mixture of fear and excitement.. But don't worry; the excitement will soon pass" - the guy that did a lot of the original structural and regs planning and specifying for my house

You might find builders reluctant to quote from planning plans; they're just not detailed enough to let the guys know what they're doing, when and how.

Your building sign off route will either be full plans (normal for a larger project such as full house) or building notice (more like, your builder builds it with all the requisite competence and the inspector looks at it regularly and yay/nays it). Building notice route attracting a nay might mean pulling bits down/digging up and redoing, which is why normal people usually go full plans, then all the builder has to do is do exectly what the plan says, he knows it will pass, he knows when it's finished and you get what you want. If you trust your builder or self to do it right, you can look to go building notice route and skip the detailed plans. Youll need an inspector who will get on board with this idea, and you may be more likely to find one in the private sector than in the council. Cost of either route is the same from the perspective of paying the inspector, it's just paying (or not) the architect/ural technician that represents a saving

As you're putting it out to tender/dont have a relationship with any builder existing it will likely be worth the extra cost of full plans, for reasons mentioned above re nailing the builder down to a price and a job. Then the job is either right (as planned) or wrong, and fault is clear (it's either the builders fault or the plan drawer's). Without a signed off plan to refer to, it could be anyone's fault, and could cost you dearly.

Once you've signed everything off and stated how it will be, don't change it. Scope creep burns through contingency money faster than anything else on a job.

Send out for 10 quotes. If you hear an acknowledgement from 3 of them and a quote from one of them, you're doing well. Send out for as many quotes as you need to, to get at least 3 quotes for each job. People will even turn up to your job and look at it, and then not quote. Try not to despair at this stage; you're dealing with people to whom computers/paperwork/numbers are generally anathema. The bigger, more organised, more expensive outfits will hire an office person to deal with this crap, though that contributes to why they're more expensive

Selling your primary residence exempts you from CG tax. Building a residence for any family member allows you to reclaim VAT under the self build scheme but if you're appointing a main contractor they should rate their services at 0% anyway, so your reclaim might not amount to much.

Consider what you will do with the property at the end; consider that to buy it from you, someone else will have to raise a mortgage on it (probably). On new properties under 10 years old, that haven't proven that they won't fall down by not having stood for 6 years, they generally need to be covered by some form of assurance. This either takes the form of "architect's certificates" where you essentially find a qualified person who has experience of overseeing building work, and is a member of a relevant professional body, and who holds a public liability insurance policy of at least the amount the bank demands, to oversee the work (visit at 5 or 6 stages of the build) and provide a series of certificates that state he is willing to assume liability for the structural integrity of the building for 6 years.. Or it takes the form of a latent defects warranty that insures against defects that affect the building structure and certain aspects of its finish and services for 10 years.
Whether a particular bank will accept architects certificates or a latent defects warranty depends on the bank, so it's wise (if planning to sell) to arrange a suitable policy (one that is accepted by many banks) before any aspect of building commences. If you take out a latent defects policy on a partly completed building the premium rises considerably, anything up to double if the building is fully complete (if you can even succeed in getting cover). Whether an architect will assume liability for a partly completed building depends on the architect, and how far you've got.
For my project, a structural warranty/latent defect insurance was about £1000/square metre of finished usable floor space (300sqm house, £3000 warranty) rising to £5500 in a finished building. I went the architects certificate route, paying £1500 to a local architectural technician who was MCIAT, and I engaged him part way through when the previous architect suddenly decided he couldn't issue certificates after all. It caused me a small extra headache remortgaging off a self build mortgage onto a normal one, because fewer banks these days accept certificates, than accept structural warranty, but acceptance is still widespread enough that they're a useful and cheaper route to the same end. The cheapest warranty quotes came from selfbuildzone, crl, checkmate and premier guarantee. You can find out whether a particular bank accepts a particular warranty by reading section 6 part 2 of the council of mortgage lenders handbook; it's available free on the web. Long story short; everyone accepts NHBC, while selfbuildzone is very popular. I'd still go the certificates route next time, even if selling

Consider moving into your new house and selling your old one instead; none of these headaches abound and you get to enjoy a nice new house. If it's too big for your future needs, and a sale is likely, grease the wheels now. If rental is likely, look into what it will need to comply with legislation, and build in support for it

 

[Mottie]

It’s not straightforward this house building lark, is it?

 

[cjard]

Not for the man with the money, alas. It's funny though, that at the start the magical figure that gets things moving, is a thousand quid - every time you need professional input, their fee is a grand.

Still.. towards the end of the job, it becomes 5 grand.. but at least you know you're getting there when you start getting banged for amounts like that.

 

[Footsoldier888]

Starting at the beginning, there is nothing to stop you going back to planning with a different drawing for a contemporary house if that was your personal preference, or if it would add value to the project. Some councils do like new buildings to be in a different style to existing buildings, infact there is a fantastic house in Sheffield on a site similar to yours, a modern design can look stunning in a setting like this.

If you do want to build this house I would still pay a lot more for architectural input because it will increase the end value substantially plus be a better design. Things like a better layout, more imaginative window solutions, getting light in above the stairs, will pay off well at the end. You will also need detailed drawings to resolve the issues around the angled wall. Good projects of this nature usually involve 10-15K in design fees. I personally think the downstairs particularly needs work.

Your site is tight so you will have to give thought as to how to build this house. One option is to consider building in timber frame if you have crane access. It can also give you more flexibility inside as regards load bearing walls.

In view of the end price, you want to give it a bit of a wow factor. That and the angled wall will raise costs. Realistically you are looking at 200-250K for a 122sq m house in that price bracket, more the upper in truth. Also don't forget the landscaping will cost a fair bit. But if you invest in good design and pay for quality matierals it will pay off at that price bracket.

 

[Mottie]

Just had the first estate agent round. He reckons that a newly built house in that position, built to a high spec and good finish, should go for around £550 -£600K. He reckons you could be looking £200K+ to build it. He reckons I could put the site, with planning permission, up for sale for £250K and get somewhere near to that. That's looking to be the more attractive option to me at the moment. I suppose I could put it up and see what happens - don't have to sell if I don't want to, do I. Then again, I don't need the money and I could either carry on working at the site or rent it out - I have three years before the planning permission expires and I'm assuming I could either renew it or re-apply in the future - the local council definitely want to get rid of a commercial property in a residential area so I don't think it would be a problem getting permission again.