Ideal Response 120, low pressure and cowboys

[att]

Hi - I hope someone can give me some much needed advice
In summery
1) Boiler make is Ideal Response 120 gas

2) Problem -> No heating + Hot water due to pressure drop after about every 6 months.

3)Mainly I'm not too sure about the technicians advice and charges !

Longer version ...
We have a Ideal Response 120, the whole system is about 5 years old
about 7 months ago, the pressure dropped below 0 bars and the burner wouldn't start. A boiler technician fixed this by simply refilling the water tank in the boiler (charged £25).

Now after about 7 months, the pressure has dropped again below 0 bars and the burner wouldn't kick in.
Is it normal to loose pressure after 6-7 months ? From what I've read it's normal to loose about .5 bar every 6 months ?

I got a new boiler technician and he refilled the tank (call out £85), and said the pressure drop is due to a leak somewhere in the heating system. He checked all the Thermostatic Radiator Valves (TRVs) and couldn't find any leaks.

Then he said the pressure loss is due to a leak in the expansion vessel and it needs replacing, since the vessel is in an awkward place and the only way to remove it (as per manufacturer instruction) is through the top. But its too close to the ceiling and there was not enough space to get the vessel out to replace, therefor “the whole boiler needs replacing”.
Is this true ? I thought the leaks on a combi are related to radiator valve spindles, Pressure Relief Valve or the Automatic Air Vent ? And I have a feeling a boiler replacement is not necessary ?

To demonstrate the leak he overfilled the boiler and it started to leak (probably from the outlet ?).
This leak is not something I've ever seen before during it's normal operation. By this time I was getting suspicious, to increase my suspicions , he left the whole boiler unit (front panel ) open, saying there was no point in closing it up before replacing the vessel. And gave an estimate on another £200 to do that (this time the total is £285).

Now before leaving he demonstrated how to refill the system, when I overdid it , started to leak again !, which led me to believe that if you overfill it would leak and it's not because the expansion vessel is damaged.

Now ,I am not too sure about this technician with all the cowboys you hear of.
Any advice greatly appreciated

 

[Rob]

Where exactly is the leak coming from? Can you see it?

A pressure loss if 1 bar every 6 months isnt a problem. Aslong as you know how to do it, which you should, you avoid the call-out.

 

[scatmanjohn]

I would not have one of them heaps of sheeiite in my house but thats another story.

Someone is telling you a load of carp.

Even if the expansion vessel had gone he could take the boiler off the wall , fit a new vessel and then stick the boiler back on the wall or just fit one somewhere else on the system (space permitting).

technician

technician my arrrrssse

 

[corgiman]

I would not go for replacing the boiler for the want of a new expansion vessel (you can install an external one)

I would however replace it cos its shyte

so I concur with scat

 

[bengasman]

Chances are this one won’t last too much longer, so it might be a case of throwing good money after bad.
He should have put the boiler back as he found it.
As long as the expansion vessel itself does not loose the water, you can have a second e/v fitted for half of what he quoted, if not less.
Check if the prv-outlet does not leak.
Your pressure loss is on the border of what is acceptable, but would be good to find and repair

 

[att]

Where exactly is the leak coming from? Can you see it?

A pressure loss if 1 bar every 6 months isnt a problem. Aslong as you know how to do it, which you should, you avoid the call-out.

Thanks all ,
The thing is under normal operation it's hasn't leaked at all !
It only leaked when he overfilled the tank, and the pressure increased.
It's been 5 days now with the unit open, no leaks whatsoever.

 

[ChrisR]

What do you mean by leak? If you mean water out of the pressure relief pipe through the wall, it's designed to do that over 3 bar.
You can get the pressure vessel out to the right as well as the top, by the way - if there's about 125 mm.
Did he try to pump it up with aor, bu the way?

See FAQ for more info on pressures.

 

[att]

When he overfilled the boiler (probably > 3 bar ), water started coming out of the bottom of the boiler. I am not sure where the pressure relief pipe is. He simply put a pot underneath the boiler to collect any further leaks, none so far !

I've read the FAQ, not too sure what aor is ? he did pump some water to increase the pressure on the system

 

[bengasman]

Pressure going down = leak. Don’t know where, don’t know when, but do know it will only get worse.
If the pressure goes all the way down to 0, there must be something wrong. First check is always prvs, second top of rad-valves, compression joints and so on

 

[att]

Chances are this one won’t last too much longer, so it might be a case of throwing good money after bad.
He should have put the boiler back as he found it.
As long as the expansion vessel itself does not loose the water, you can have a second e/v fitted for half of what he quoted, if not less.
Check if the prv-outlet does not leak.
Your pressure loss is on the border of what is acceptable, but would be good to find and repair

I am not sure where the prv-outlet is located, as far as I can see there are no leaks from the unit.

 

[att]

Pressure going down = leak. Don’t know where, don’t know when, but do know it will only get worse.
If the pressure goes all the way down to 0, there must be something wrong. First check is always prvs, second top of rad-valves, compression joints and so on

Thanks bengasman ,
Even at a lower rate like 1 bar / 6 months ?
After your advice, I think I should get another tech to have a look at this , would either you or someone else be able to recommend a good technician in Chelmsford area please ?

Ta

 

[bengasman]

The key point, from behind my keyboard, is that it goes all the way to 0. If it would go from 2 to 1 in six months, I would shrug it off.
Prv check is simple diy. outside wall, underneath the boiler. should be the funny bit of pipe that doubles back to the wall
Sandwich bag and rubber band over outlet pipe. Should stay completely dry. Inside that is.
Rad valve is likewise diy. Take knob off, sometimes just pull sometimes undo screw. Clean is good, black sludge-like residue means it is weeping. Puddle underneath means it is really knackered

 

[att]

thanks
Do you know how much it would cost for expansion vessel replacement ?
and a good tech in Chelmsford area ?

 

[Agile]

Assume the EXV is about £60 and the price to replace it is about £85 IF there is about 200 mm on the right hand side!

Its quite normal for heating systems to lose about 0.5 Bar every two months.

Its the users responsibility to repressurise the system to 1.5 Bar if the pressure falls below 1.0 bar.

You seem very quick to discredit your heating advisors!

Tony

 

[att]

Cheers Tony
I am not sure why you think I am discrediting the heating advisor ?
It's simply I didn't think his advice about this matter was correct for the following reasons ...
1.The previous heating advisor charged only £25 to represurise the system, current one charged £85
2.The new heating advisor said, he can't remove the vessel due to space restrictions so need a full boiler replacement !
3.He is charging £200 for EXV + Replacement (your estimate is £145)
4.What you have said is precisely what I thought, that it's my responsibility to refill and it's normal to have pressure drops, however according to the advisor this is abnormal and points to a leak somewhere within the system, and need a EXV replacement.
5.Last but not least the dangerous state he left the boiler unit, with the front panel open, wires hanging out, the cupboard door removed lying on the floor and a plastic pot below the unit to collect any leaks.
He wasn't very happy when I requested him to close the front cover !

My idea was to get a second opinion, if anyones offended by my posts, please accept my sincere apologies, and let me emphasise that it was unintentional. I am very grateful to have found such a useful, helpful and a professional community

Assume the EXV is about £60 and the price to replace it is about £85 IF there is about 200 mm on the right hand side!

Its quite normal for heating systems to lose about 0.5 Bar every two months.

Its the users responsibility to repressurise the system to 1.5 Bar if the pressure falls below 1.0 bar.

You seem very quick to discredit your heating advisors!

Tony