I'm after advice on a new Central Heating system

[John67]

I cant belive all the rubbish i have just read, it happens on this site every time thermal stores are mentioned.

My basic advice is get rid of your plumber before he makes a mess of your system and ask your architect if he can recommend an installer that knows what they are doing.

The system that the architect has advised you on is absolutely spot on.

good luck

 

[kevplumb]

There isn't a whole lot more to learn after 3 years, unless you are in a very limited job or a limited learner.

Have you learnt everything there is to know regards domestic plumbing , heating & gas? , i doubt it , we are learning ALL the time , even those TIME SERVED guys n gals like myself.

Do you feel the same regards commercial too.

gas safe ENGINEER
what a pratt

GAS ENGINEER IS A TITLE ON A ****HOUSE DOOR
im a pipe fitter that went into industrial then domestic gas and plumbing
then got ****ed off with the crap and went back to where i started with a twist

 

[SimonH2]

I cant belive all the rubbish i have just read, it happens on this site every time thermal stores are mentioned.

Yeah, I'd noticed that. There seem to be a lot of arguments about "experience" and "time served" etc. All I'll say is that someone who's done the same thing for 40 years will be well qualified to ... do the same thing for another few years yet. Experience counts for nothing if it's all in one field and they've never tried to widen their mindset - I've seen it so many times in so many different industries, the "I've always done it this way" approach.

My basic advice is get rid of your plumber before he makes a mess of your system

Absolutely. If a plumber is suggesting that a thermal store or heat bank supplying "mains pressure" DHW won't be capable of supply the same pressure as an unvented cylinder supplying "mains pressure" hot water, then he really is one of those who's been doing the same thing for <x> years and can't force himself to think outside of the box.

The system that the architect has advised you on is absolutely spot on.

I agree.

Things that come to mind ...
Once you are putting in an unvented cylinder (as the plumber wants to do) then it's not a big step up in cost or complexity to fit a thermal store or heat bank which can be unvented and hence a) safer, and b) not need annual servicing by someone in a relevant scheme (yes, I forget the details). The reason the plumber is scared of a wood burner is that he knows it simply won't mix safely with the unvented cylinder he wants to fit.
A thermal store/heat bank is ideal if you have two heat sources - in this case suggested as gas and wood burner. They form an excellent neutral point and allow any number of sources and loads to be connected without complicated measures to ensure the right flows. Solar is easy to integrate, but he doesn't have to do that now - just ensure he has provision for it (typically a coil in the bottom of the store). Contrary to what a lot of people will tell you, solar thermal is indeed a DIY proposition if you are that way inclined. Size the store right and he'll probably not have to use much if any gas for most of the time.

I'd suggest the OP gets over to the Navitron forum where he'll get advice from people that actually understand the systems, rather than those who seem to see anything but a combi as "a bad idea".

BTW - yes I'll admit to a bias. I will freely admit that I have a significant dislike for combi boilers, and a certain amount of disrespect for people that push them as the best thing since sliced bread for all situations. I also think highly of thermal stores and heat banks. After considering options, I fitted a thermal store in my flat, and my brother has a setup just like the OP's architect suggested in his house. He has solar, wood burner, gas boiler for backup, under floor heating for most of the house, and rads where UFH wasn't practical - and he is very happy with it.

 

[simond]

Thermal stores are not rocket science.

I think the question the OP needs to ask himself is how much he wants to invest in something that will never recoup his investment.

Some customers want to invest in common garden well supported stuff like gas/oil boilers, others want to think they are seeing outside the box and dream of linking solar and solid fuel etc etc.

As an installer, I am more than happy to put the latter stuff in, that is not a drama. Problem is, in general I find the sort of customer who wants it is someone whose house is a perpetual project and who wants everything debated at length and then done piecemeal in dribs and drabs as the house catches up.

I don't tend to make any profit out of this sort of customer, so I am very careful to avoid the 'project' type of job. After all, I am in this to make a living, not make a point.

 

[SimonH2]

Thermal stores are not rocket science.

Pity so many in the industry seem to think they are. Thinking about it, I'd suggest that anyone who can't deal with a thermal store, or even a heat bank, isn't up to the complexity of dealing with a combi boiler which generally has more moving parts and far more complicated controls.

I think the question the OP needs to ask himself is how much he wants to invest in something that will never recoup his investment.

Sometimes it's not about pure financial payback. Most of what we do to our houses will never recoup the investment - and if you took that line then an awful lot of stuff just wouldn't happen. I know heating is slightly different, but does anyone ever recoup their investment in the big plasma screen, or surround sound, or the nice wallpaper, or the printed concrete drive, or ... ? The answer is no, but people pay for them because it's to make their lives nicer.
Personally, I'm prepared to "invest" in not having a combi with all it's faults - I know that's heresy to some people, but I dislike them and their fundamental features.

As to the debate here, I'd suggest it sounds like a situation where a heat bank or thermal store would be ideal. Note that I'm only saying it sounds like it would, since details are notable by their absence.
A wood burner gives a nice cosy feel to a living room - and heating water is perhaps a secondary consideration. If you happen to have a good supply of free or cheap wood then that's "almost" free heat, and if you are inclined to count your output, then is low CO2*.
If you have a store in to support he WBS, then adding solar thermal needn't be expensive (which of course is a relative term). No, I haven't done any actual figures on that - yet.

For me there is a secondary consideration - whether this applies to many people is a different matter. The internals of a gas appliance are out of bounds by law for my rented properties - that means I am at the mercy of the people I get in to sort it. I'm sure there are some very good people with diagnostics skills - sadly they aren't employed by the outfit I have a contract with locally (last time I ended up diagnosing the fault myself anyway and telling them what to replace !). And for the avoidance of doubt, this outfit is actually one with a fairly good reputation locally !
In fact I can't even just get someone in as required, the law says (last time I looked) I have to have a service contract for the boiler.

Once I'm past the water valves then it's a different matter. I have the option to get someone in, or do it myself. When a tenant contacts you late on a Friday afternoon that can be quite a factor to consider. Since I only have a couple of properties to deal with, I can be intimate with the way the systems work (and in particular how they work when they are working). So I don't have to spend time finding where the controls are (and even what controls are fitted), guessing at what it should be doing, and so on.
And I can avoid having to deal with someone who's going to start with "<suck> you need to rip that out and replace it with a combi Mate"

* The debate on that is a whole thread of it's own.

 

[SimonH2]

Some customers want to invest in common garden well supported stuff like gas/oil boilers, others want to think they are seeing outside the box and dream of linking solar and solid fuel etc etc.

Just out of interest, for those who have been in the business long enough, what was the thinking on combi boilers when they came out ? Was it by any chance along the lines of "nice idea, but terribly complicated and unreliable and not for customers who want 'common garden well supported stuff like ...'" ?

 

[simond]

Not a valid analogy. Thermal Stores have been around for donkeys years.

Some would argue that their heyday has been and gone, they have gone from popular to niche.

BG used to fit them and refused to do unvented for years. That is history now, they have pretty much dropped thermal stores.

There are people on here, SimonH2, that think they are great, but they represent a very small part of the market, as can be judged by the recent demises of their leading manufacturers, Gledhill and DPS.

I only fit the occasional one, because of the self builder dreamer type of customer they attract. I used to use DPS so I'm a bit nervous about the others, DPS were good.

 

[Jake1886]

and ask your architect if he can recommend an installer

Lol, you'll know when the recommended 'installer' turns up as he'll be riding a bloody horse!

 

[gasservice85]

Answer to OP

If you have alot of money that you don't want anymore, drive a Prius and care about the environment then get some renewable energy.

However in the real world fit a Vaillant or Viessmann system boiler and unvented cylinder for a reasonable price and get on with the rest of your life not worrying about if you'll ever see the return on the 5-10 grand you wasted on renewables

 

[SimonH2]

If you have alot of money that you don't want anymore, drive a Prius and care about the environment then get some renewable energy.

However in the real world fit a Vaillant or Viessmann system boiler and unvented cylinder for a reasonable price and get on with the rest of your life not worrying about if you'll ever see the return on the 5-10 grand you wasted on renewables

Or, fit a wood burner for that nice "real fire" experience (and treat the heating as a by-product), and for a grand extra have a nice system (with some gas savings as a bonus). The most important question to ask yourself is, do you like the idea of a real fire in your living room, or would you prefer to stick with radiators only ? If you fancy a real fire then fit one, if you don't then don't - financial questions of return on investment don't have a value for enjoyment. If everything were down to return on investment, we'd all live in boxes with bare unplastered block walls !

Unvented cylinders are usually not what you'd call cheap. I find it odd that there are so many RGIs (and non RGIs) that will slag off thermal stores/heat banks for their expense, but not bat an eyelid when suggesting an unvented cylinder.

 

[stevehuws]

Thanks for all the replies, it's a lot of help.

Turns out the plumber has just qualified, so some of his statements make sense.

As for "return on investment": I bought a new car recently and lost £1000 just by driving it out of the dealership.

steve

 

[elecguy]

If your looking to mix your heating and hot water from something like a AGA/gas boiler, then ask your achitect to take a look at a DunsleyHeat LTD now I bet theres not many of you seen any of those, but they are experts at linking up systems. They have been around for many years and will teach most people something new.

Heatpumps are fantastic bits of kits, but the heatloss calc is essential! a 5kW pump is not going to heat an old victorian house or poor barn conversion, Heatpumps do best when the property is correctly and properly insulated.

One of the best bits of kits ive seen so far is the Glow-worm Hybrid, take alook its interesting stuff and decides itself whether to use the heat pump or the gas boiler, very impressive bit of kit!!!

 

[simond]

I think you'll find most of the installers here are aware/have fitted the Dunsley Neutraliser. I did a search on Google and found a post recommending it in 2006.

I had written it!

If Glowworm made better boilers, and found out how to answer a phone, the combined system would be of interest. But the UK designed Glowworm stuff is a bit rough.

Nice concept though, makes sense for someone to build one in a box.

If I was the Glowworm marketing manager, I would say, hang on, aren't we known for making cheapo boilers? Are our installer base dealing with customers who want to invest over double the capital in boiler system, or are they dealing with cheapskate punters who quibble over the last £5iver?

In other words, good idea, but it has the wrong name on it. They won't sell them because their customers aren't the right socio economic group.

 

[elecguy]

If Glowworm made better boilers, and found out how to answer a phone, the combined system would be of interest. But the UK designed Glowworm stuff is a bit rough.

To be fair to the guys on the GW tech line they have always seem far more competent than there competitors helplines when i have had to ring them, granted there maybe a wait, but you always get fantastic advice!!

i take it you have not come across the "code for sustainable homes" which is effecting all of the social housing network so from what i can see they postioned themselves right bag in the middle of where they need to be, more over you say they make cheapo boilers? so would you pay a premimum for a Vaillant or would you get the same boiler in a differrent skin for slightly less built in the same factory designed by the same people?????

 

[elecguy]

If Glowworm made better boilers, and found out how to answer a phone, the combined system would be of interest. But the UK designed Glowworm stuff is a bit rough.

To be fair to the guys on the GW tech line they have always seem far more competent than there competitors helplines when i have had to ring them, granted there maybe a wait, but you always get fantastic advice!!