Thanks for all that softus, I'll have a closer look at the various sections. Of course I understand that it's the statute law that ultimately matters, not the guidance. But it seems clear that, if you are correct, then the Building Regulations explanatory booklet is wrong. If so, this is quite a serious matter.softus said:
Installation of vented cylinders - notifiable?
- Thread starter GWP-Stansted
- Start date
I certainly agree that it's wrong. How serious that is I don't really know.chrishutt said:
BTW, the ODPM guidance on Part P is also wrong, i.e. it conflicts with the Regulations that are published by the same government department.
Crazy innit
I've done some more research. I think the requirement to notify does apply to vented hot water cylinders for the following reasons-
Firstly, the main Statutory Instrument (SI 2000:2531) includes the following -
I must add that I have not been through all the amendments and it is quite possible that there is something further of relevance that I have missed, but that's about all I can face in one sitting.
Firstly, the main Statutory Instrument (SI 2000:2531) includes the following -
I have emphasised building work since that requires definition, which the same SI defines as follows -
Now controlled service or fitting requires definition, which the same SI does defines as follows -
Now only Part L1 imposes a requirement on vented hot water cylinders, so we must now look to the amendments to find if Part L1 is subsequently added to the definition, which we find as follows in SI 2001 : 3335 -
This amendment took effect from April 2002, so it appears that since that time vented hot water cylinders have been notifiable.
I must add that I have not been through all the amendments and it is quite possible that there is something further of relevance that I have missed, but that's about all I can face in one sitting.
Poor Steve131, he only asked about his brown water only to be faced with a discussion on Government regulations!
Unfortunately, Steve, I dont think that you are likely to have enough knowledge of plumbing to give the detail required to give you a web assessment of the problem that you have.
To sum up the solution it is very likely that you will have to have a new cylinder fitted and this might be about £430 or so.
You need a very competent plumber to diagnose the problem. IF you dont know one then a member of the IPHE does at least come with a complaints procedure if you are not satisfied.
Tony Glazier
Unfortunately, Steve, I dont think that you are likely to have enough knowledge of plumbing to give the detail required to give you a web assessment of the problem that you have.
To sum up the solution it is very likely that you will have to have a new cylinder fitted and this might be about £430 or so.
You need a very competent plumber to diagnose the problem. IF you dont know one then a member of the IPHE does at least come with a complaints procedure if you are not satisfied.
Tony Glazier
b*ll*cks 
Steve131 - going with the faulty cylinder possibility, and assuming that you have a feed and expansion cistern, have you checked to see if it's overflowing (either by looking at the warning pipe or by getting into the loft)?
If it isn't, then what are the relative heights of the F&E cistern and cold storage cistern? I ask because it's possible for the water to mix but for neither cistern level to rise if the water levels are the same (or nearly the same).
Another thought - have you checked on the condition of stored cold water? You said that the cold water isn't brown, but is this the mains or the tank water or both?
If it isn't, then what are the relative heights of the F&E cistern and cold storage cistern? I ask because it's possible for the water to mix but for neither cistern level to rise if the water levels are the same (or nearly the same).
Another thought - have you checked on the condition of stored cold water? You said that the cold water isn't brown, but is this the mains or the tank water or both?
OK. Bottom line - my interpretation is still that vented cylinder installation or replacement is not notifiable.chrishutt said:
The key wording is in the following amendment:
[code:1](4) After regulation 3(1) there shall be inserted the following paragraph -
" (1A) The provision or extension of a controlled service or fitting -
(a) in or in connection with an existing dwelling; and
(b) being a service or fitting in relation to which paragraph L1, but not Part G, H or J, of Schedule 1 imposes a requirement,
shall only be building work where that work consists of the provision of a window, rooflight, roof window, door (being a door which together with its frame has more than 50 per cent of its internal face area glazed), a space heating or hot water service boiler, or a hot water vessel.".[/code:1]
Whilst I agree that L1 added a requirement, my interpretation is that it was only in the context of "conservation of fuel and power", and doesn't add a requirement for the issue of a building notice.
In support of this interpretation, note the following amendment in SI 2001:3335.
[code:1]Particulars and plans where a building notice is given
13.
(4) Where building work involves the provision of a hot water storage system in relation to which paragraph G3 of Schedule 1 (hot water storage) imposes a requirement, a building notice shall be accompanied by a statement which specifies -
(a) the name, make, model and type of hot water storage system to be installed;
(b) the name of the body, if any, which has approved or certified that the system is capable of performing in a way which satisfies the requirements of paragraph G3 of Schedule 1;
(c) the name of the body, if any, which has issued any current registered operative identity card to the installer or proposed installer of the system.[/code:1]
I've also had another look at the ODPM guidance document, and the wording in here concurs with my interpretation, namely:
[code:1](s) If I want to install or replace a hot water cylinder, will the
Building Regulations apply?
YES – if you are installing or replacing a hot water cylinder
within a vented hot water storage system (i.e. a system fed from
an open-ended pipe for venting). The requirements are for the
installation to be energy efficient.[/code:1]
So, ODPM doesn't state that notification is a requirement, for a vented cylinder. In this regard it isn't wrong.
Finally, regarding Benchmark documentation, ODPM says:
[code:1]For either type of system your installer should leave you with a completed
installation record and commissioning certificate. Some manufacturers attach
certificates to cylinders ready for installers to complete.[/code:1]
Note the use of the word "should".
Thanks for the response. softus, but I think you're missing the point. Take the wording you reproduce. What it says in effect (cutting out the irrelevant stuff) is -
As for the additional requirements in relation to unvented cylinders (G3), that does not imply anything at all in relation to vented cylinders.
Finally, in relation to the Explanatory Booklet, the key word here is YES (their capitals) - this being the answer to the question "will the building regulations apply?" in relation to hot water cylinders.
Nevertheless I will email the ODPM for clarification.
In other words, it confirms that the provision of a hot water vessel is building work (and therefore subject to notification).
As for the additional requirements in relation to unvented cylinders (G3), that does not imply anything at all in relation to vented cylinders.
Finally, in relation to the Explanatory Booklet, the key word here is YES (their capitals) - this being the answer to the question "will the building regulations apply?" in relation to hot water cylinders.
Nevertheless I will email the ODPM for clarification.
Chris, we're certainly missing each other's point 
The words you regard as irrelevant are, to me, the most relevant. So when you wrote this part:
[code:1](b) being a service or fitting in relation to which paragraph L1, but not Part G, H or J, of Schedule 1 imposes a requirement,[/code:1]
This is important because it means that the requirements regarding a hot water vessel (notwithstanding the special provisions of G3 for a vented cylinder) relate only to heat loss and energy efficiency. Basically, this is the regulation that requires a certain efficacy of insulation - what we colloquially refer to a 'L1 lagging'.
If I take your interpretation, and ignore that clause (b), then services or fittings named under Part G are excluded from "building work" and thereby from the need to notify!
Also, in the Explanatory Booklet, the answer "Yes...the Building Regulations apply" is quite correct. I always thought they applied, but not insofar as the specific regulation regarding notification, which is only a subset of the regulations.
The words you regard as irrelevant are, to me, the most relevant. So when you wrote this part:
...you omitted the most important wording, namely the qualification of clause (b) in regulation 3(1A);chrishutt said:
[code:1](b) being a service or fitting in relation to which paragraph L1, but not Part G, H or J, of Schedule 1 imposes a requirement,[/code:1]
This is important because it means that the requirements regarding a hot water vessel (notwithstanding the special provisions of G3 for a vented cylinder) relate only to heat loss and energy efficiency. Basically, this is the regulation that requires a certain efficacy of insulation - what we colloquially refer to a 'L1 lagging'.
If I take your interpretation, and ignore that clause (b), then services or fittings named under Part G are excluded from "building work" and thereby from the need to notify!
Also, in the Explanatory Booklet, the answer "Yes...the Building Regulations apply" is quite correct. I always thought they applied, but not insofar as the specific regulation regarding notification, which is only a subset of the regulations.
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