Installing double socket in wall powered by plug

[SUNRAY]

John you said yourself in a recent thread that the regs often don’t make sense. Would you not consider the one permitting a BS1363 on a lighting circuit one such example?

It appears only one person believes that to be the case.

In my home are 4 'loft' areas. In those areas I have provided 13A sockets for 2 ultrasonic animal scarers, Aerial amplifier, Internet router, 2 External Pir flood lamps, 2 Ubiquiti dishes and 2 spare for a portable light. On top of that I have flou lights in 2 areas.

A total of 12 facilities in the loft that for some reason you frequently describe as wrong.

Oh my God heavens above how on earth have I managed to keep that lot under control for 25 years? Oh do I really need to panic and start chasing out walls to get rid?

Of course I ruddy well don't, it's all adequately protected with 6A RCBO's and not once caused an iota of trouble.


Well actually I should tell the whole truth here, I have had electrical issues in the main loft...




The squirrels didn't like the ultrasonic scarers and chewed the enclosures and the PVC cable insulation feeding them right down to the metal.




So let's look a little further...
My local hospital...

As part of hospital radio we required power for distribution amplifiers, radio microphone receivers, music link transmitters and receivers...

Oh guess where the Hospital staff found the power for for about 10 sockets?

Yes of course, off the 10A lighting circuits, albeit all but one are on a 1A FCU, the big one is on 2A MCB and RCD (3 phase with circuit going through twice to increase sensitivity) as the aerial feeders go outside.

 

[winston1]

It appears only one person believes that to be the case.

In my home are 4 'loft' areas. In those areas I have provided 13A sockets for 2 ultrasonic animal scarers, Aerial amplifier, Internet router, 2 External Pir flood lamps, 2 Ubiquiti dishes and 2 spare for a portable light. On top of that I have flou lights in 2 areas.

A total of 12 facilities in the loft that for some reason you frequently describe as wrong.

Why are your fluorescent lights and flood lights wired via 13 amp plugs rarther than wired direct?

So let's look a little further...
My local hospital...

As part of hospital radio we required power for distribution amplifiers, radio microphone receivers, music link transmitters and receivers...

Oh guess where the Hospital staff found the power for for about 10 sockets?

Yes of course, off the 10A lighting circuits, albeit all but one are on a 1A FCU, the big one is on 2A MCB and RCD (3 phase with circuit going through twice to increase sensitivity) as the aerial feeders go outside.

Sounds like a typical example of the hospital asking the disk jockey or whoever to do the wiring. Lighting circuits do not require FCUs.

 

[SUNRAY]

...I have provided 13A sockets for... 2 External Pir flood lamps... On top of that I have flou lights in 2 areas.

Why are your fluorescent lights and flood lights wired via 13 amp plugs rarther than wired direct?

The fluo's are not on 13A plugs but so what if they are? The PIR's are on 13A plugs to provide health and safety full isolation.

As part of hospital radio we required power for distribution amplifiers, radio microphone receivers, music link transmitters and receivers...

Oh guess where the Hospital staff found the power for for about 10 sockets?

Sounds like a typical example of the hospital asking the disk jockey or whoever to do the wiring. Lighting circuits do not require FCUs.

Don't be so ******* stupid, have you got any idea what hoops have to be gone through to do anything in a hospital and who is permitted to do it?

Lighting circuits do not require FCUs.

No that's quite right; Lighting circuits do not require FCUs. However adding a 1A fuse on a 10A fused circuit to feed a 13A socket is very likely to prevent

An unboarded loft plunged into darkness is clearly very dangerous for the person up there who has just plugged a high power vacuum cleaner or whatever in.

 

[JohnW2]

John you said yourself in a recent thread that the regs often don’t make sense. Would you not consider the one permitting a BS1363 on a lighting circuit one such example?

Not really.

Even if I did think that the regulation made no sense, that wouldn't alter anything. In such situations, one simply has to "live with" the regulation - there's no point in constantly moaning about it, and it certainly is not appropriate to advise people to ignore a regulation, whatever we may think of it.

 

[SUNRAY]

For What it's worth I've just done a little experiment, I turned on all the lights in a lighting circuit (about 600W) supplied by a B6 RCBO and plugged 1200W Henry in and do you know what?... Henry was doing a grand sucking up job. Then I thought 'I know what, I'll let Henry and 1200W Hetty play together', do you know what?... Henry and Hetty performed just as I expected, even on high power with the hoses blocked off to pull more current.

Edit:
Just for fun I added a fan heater, even on 2.5KW the RCBO didn't trip straight away.

 

[bernardgreen]

Henry and Hetty performed just as I expected

I hope they behaved and did not couple up their hoses

 

[JohnW2]

For What it's worth I've just done a little experiment, I turned on all the lights in a lighting circuit (about 600W) supplied by a B6 RCBO and plugged 1200W Henry in and do you know what?... Henry was doing a grand sucking up job. Then I thought 'I know what, I'll let Henry and 1200W Hetty play together', do you know what?... Henry and Hetty performed just as I expected, even on high power with the hoses blocked off to pull more current. ... Edit: Just for fun I added a fan heater, even on 2.5KW the RCBO didn't trip straight away.

It depends upon the duration of your experiments ...

A B6 should trip in about 30 seconds with a current of about 20A (4,600 W) or in about 1 minute at a load of about 15A (about 3,450 W) and in about 8 minutes with a load of 10A (2,300 W), and should allow about 6.78A (about 1,560 W) to flow indefinitely without tripping. I guess one has to view those figures in relation to the "EU" rules on the permitted power of vacuum cleaners!

Kind Regards, John

 

[winston1]

For What it's worth I've just done a little experiment, I turned on all the lights in a lighting circuit (about 600W) supplied by a B6 RCBO and plugged 1200W Henry in and do you know what?... Henry was doing a grand sucking up job. Then I thought 'I know what, I'll let Henry and 1200W Hetty play together', do you know what?... Henry and Hetty performed just as I expected, even on high power with the hoses blocked off to pull more current.

Edit:
Just for fun I added a fan heater, even on 2.5KW the RCBO didn't trip straight away.

You must have lots of time on your hands. Many years ago I plugged a kettle into a 13A socket in a garage not knowing it was on a lighting circuit. It immediately took out the fuse (5A fusewire in a fusebox).

 

[bernardgreen]

Many years ago I plugged a kettle into a 13A socket in a garage not knowing it was on a lighting circuit. It immediately took out the fuse (5A fusewire in a fusebox).

At last, A possible clue to the reason for Winston's obsession about 13 Amp socket not being used on lighting circuits. He was deprived of his hot drink.

 

[JohnW2]

Many years ago I plugged a kettle into a 13A socket in a garage not knowing it was on a lighting circuit. It immediately took out the fuse (5A fusewire in a fusebox).

A 3 kW electric kettle (incredibly unlikely to be used in a loft ) is in a very different ballpark from an 'EU-compliant' vacuum cleaner (also extremely unlikely to be used in a loft, but perhaps slightly more likely than a kettle).

As I recently indicated, one could easily run one (in fact, almost two) 'EU-compliant' vacuum cleaners on a circuit protected by a B6 MCB without it ever tripping.

 

[winston1]

As I recently indicated, one could easily run one (in fact, almost two) 'EU-compliant' vacuum cleaners on a circuit protected by a B6 MCB without it ever tripping.

What about starting surge? There are many older vacuum cleaners out there, in fact loads were sold off cheap just before the EU legislation became law.

 

[JohnW2]

What about starting surge? There are many older vacuum cleaners out there, in fact loads were sold off cheap just before the EU legislation became law.

That's unlikely to be an issue. That 'starting surge' will be very brief, and (in terms of the vacuum cleaners I was talking about) it's pretty unlikely that a motor with a running current of about 3.5A (800W) would have a start-up current in excess of the (30A) magnetic trip threshold of a B6 MCB.

 

[Sureitsoff?]

I hope they behaved and did not couple up their hoses

well if you were unlucky they might have twins

 

[SUNRAY]

I hope they behaved and did not couple up their hoses

well if you were unlucky they might have twins
View attachment 232663

They were certainly very excited to meet up again, it's very rare they are both out of their closet at the same time. Henrys pole was very stiff, if that's anything to go by.

 

[SUNRAY]

It depends upon the duration of your experiments ...

A B6 should trip in about 30 seconds with a current of about 20A (4,600 W) or in about 1 minute at a load of about 15A (about 3,450 W) and in about 8 minutes with a load of 10A (2,300 W), and should allow about 6.78A (about 1,560 W) to flow indefinitely without tripping. I guess one has to view those figures in relation to the "EU" rules on the permitted power of vacuum cleaners!

Kind Regards, John

I'll estimate the lights/vacs were continuously running for something like 5 mins, I couldn't do much about starting surge as they are soft start. Assuming everything was running correctly I assume they were running at around 5A each and expect a total of about 13A. I expected the RCBO to trip in that time, adding low setting of fan heater tripped the RCBO in about a minute.

Leaving to cool for 2-3 mins, restarting and switching vacs to high for a few seconds then adding 2.5KW fan heater (total of 5.5KW) tripped it in ~10 seconds.