Intergas Service Department.

[ianmcd]

Combis in the 80s were very poor and Saunier Duvall were at the top of the shoite heap, modern combis are streets ahead, I read on here all the comments about someone opening a tap and you die if you are in the shower, I have lost count of the amount of Combis I have installed over the years, I have a combi in my own home 4 bed 1 bathroom with bath and shower, never had a moments problem with the HW delivery, you will get more problems with modern taps etc that use flexible hoses that are 10mm and the combi cant get enough of a flow rate through them to operate properly

 

[Mr.B]

Again I say ta for the interest above.

As we speak I still have the luxury of being able to spend as long as I want considering what system to fit (the current boiler works OK, it's just that it's 26 years old and I'm preparing for the day it becomes uneconomical or impractical to fix).

But, again, the two sides of the argument are clearly spelt out, even in this reasonably short thread. Hence, being able to empathise with those two sides, I waver from one to the other and a concrete desision hasn't yet been formed.

BUT thanks again for the thought provoking comments which I'm grateful for . Every day's a school day, or so they say.

 

[bernardgreen]

I read on here all the comments about someone opening a tap and you die if you are in the shower,

That is a bit too sensational to ignore.

The effect of a hot shower suddenly and without warning going cold varies from person to person.

It varies from being a mild expletive as the person steps safely out of the shower to being a serious injury when the person trips and falls getting out of the shower..

The extreme effect is vasoconstriction resulting in a heart attack.

 

[DP]

BUT, the advantage of a cylinder full of hot water in the event of a temporary loss of gas or boiler breakdown is a good point and the absence of any possible concern over two hot water taps being used at the same time is another.

Perhaps this has already mentioned but I have failed to see it.....

Intergas ( check if correct across all the models), can be connected to header cistern. Advantage here is that system is not operated at higher pressure as it will be open vented.

Boiler will still give you hot water if pump fails
Boiler I am told, will condense in hot water mode too
Honeywell CM wireless controls connect directly to some ( perhaps all models?) models without needing to instal and wire the receiver
My choice however would be Open Therm connection ( Honeywell Lyric T6R)

 

[DP]

Again I say ta for the interest above.

As we speak I still have the luxury of being able to spend as long as I want considering what system to fit (the current boiler works OK, it's just that it's 26 years old and I'm preparing for the day it becomes uneconomical or impractical to fix).

But, again, the two sides of the argument are clearly spelt out, even in this reasonably short thread. Hence, being able to empathise with those two sides, I waver from one to the other and a concrete desision hasn't yet been formed.

BUT thanks again for the thought provoking comments which I'm grateful for . Every day's a school day, or so they say.

Consider chemically cleaning the present system as is, install better control that will be retained for use with new boiler. Economy is not just use of fuel ( efficiency), but overall repair and fuel cost. Adding controls will make system economical to run. Boiler may not be as efficient as a steamer, but it does not require heavy aftercare that a steamer demands or parts that may be required. Look at Honeywell Evohome. Lyric or Evohome will control new boiler when you decide to changeover

 

[Mr.B]

Perhaps this has already mentioned but I have failed to see it.....

Intergas ( check if correct across all the models), can be connected to header cistern. Advantage here is that system is not operated at higher pressure as it will be open vented.

Boiler will still give you hot water if pump fails
Boiler I am told, will condense in hot water mode too
Honeywell CM wireless controls connect directly to some ( perhaps all models?) models without needing to instal and wire the receiver
My choice however would be Open Therm connection ( Honeywell Lyric T6R)

Thanks for this, DP.

As it happens you've touched on another aspect that I've been thinking about - my system is 10mm and uses a manifold and access to the pipework would need much awkward removal of chipboard sheets on the first floor. So I was a bit concerned that pressurising a fairly old system might cause leaks ... but others in the road have done it and I think the concensus of opininion is that it would likely be OK.

EDIT - YOUR FURTHER POST JUST SPOTTED AND NOTED. TA. As it happens I do treat the system way beyong normal recommendations and it is now much better than when I inherited it 15 years ago. There's a magnetic filter on it too.

 

[muggles]

I must disregard the posts about third party access and Gateway boxes as they definitely don't apply and it's somewhat lost on me anyway.

As said, the replies HAVE been digested.

And I appreciate and understand the negative thoughts on Combis ... I've spent much of my adult life with a firm dislike of them, going back to the 1980's when I sold Saunier Duval combis for a firm of direct sales cowboys.

I'll think further about the project and may well lean towards the, frequently recommended, option of unvented cylinder and either a system boiler or heat only with separate pump and expansion vessel.

But in a house with just the two of us and a rare need for two hot water draw off points at once, a Combi must at least, warrant some consideration given that the most used hot water runs are short and there's good gas and water flow and pressure provided by dedicated supplies installed specifically for the boiler - and in addition, the warranty for a new Combi covers the whole system for 7 or 8 or 10 years whereas with the unvented option the boiler's covered but that leaves the cylinder and it's controls. And it needs an annual service on top of the boiler.

BUT, the advantage of a cylinder full of hot water in the event of a temporary loss of gas or boiler breakdown is a good point and the absence of any possible concern over two hot water taps being used at the same time is another. And we know that the Combi is, statistically, probably more likely to go wrong more often -(albeit we would hope the warranty covers much of the liability ... but, equally, we keep hearing that manufacturers are prone to dismiss warranty claims given half a chance).

So, although martin43 may say (and I very much appreciate his comments) 'Your trying to worry the problem to a conclusion' I personally reckon it's not necessarily a straight forward decision and surely forums like this are here to talk about things just such as this?

If you're concerned about space then you can go for a half way house of a very small unvented cylinder on a hot water priority setup, which means you're not heating an enormous cylinder all the time, but you do have the backup of an immersion heater if you need it. Joule make a 125L Cyclone High Gain, which will heat up in 10 minutes and provide you with a higher flow rate than the combi alone (assuming your incoming mains is up to the job of course)

 

[Mr.B]

Muggles ... a welcome suuggestion (and we're back on topic, thank goodness).

A 35kw Combi would obviously do the job OK ... the Mrs. would have welcomed having the present airing cupboard relieved of it's contents (the standard size indirect vented cylinder and it's associated pipework) ... she has designs on the cupboard for other purposes. But an unvented cylinder in there could easily be negotiated and I fully understand why they're recommended.

Equally, I wouldn't mind not having the tanks in the loft - nothing to freeze and a bit more space - but it's not of huge importance.

Incoming water flow is excellent and ditto pressure. (Even better since the water company changed the top half of the stopcock in the road ... the washer had perished and the remains of it was partly blocking the supply). I have a pressure reducing valve regulated down to 3 bar ... but have fitted a new 22mm supply(with a new full bore stop tap), straight off the incoming blue MDPE under the sink which will serve any new boiler or cylinder.

I think I ought to be confident that the 10mm pipework will stand the (slightly) increased pressure and get rid of the current vented principle.

This extra discussion is most helpful ... ta.

 

[muggles]

You could always put the unvented cylinder in your loft - it'll be out of the way up there and mean that Mrs.B can have her airing cupboard. You take out the big cold water storage tank and either move the F&E to the apex of the loft or pressurise the system and do away with the F&E altogether. Either way, you end up with a bit more space in the loft too

 

[Mr.B]

True, and a worthy suggestion ... although the airing cupboard (and also the site of a new Combi, if that were to be installed) are both sited really close to the most often used hot water outlets, so little loss would be incurred. At the moment the airing cupboard is great for warming the towels after a shower - but I imagine we'd just fit a small tubular heater if there were no cylinder in there. I admit I'm really talking minor considerations now. Sorry

 

[Mr.B]

What would the recommended method be to stand an Intergas Xclusive or Xtreme Combi off the wall to allow pipework to pass vertically behind?

I can see this :- Intergas Stand Off Bracket 36/30 (093206) but it says it's for use with Fitting Kit A, and I didn't think I wanted Fitting Kit A.

I realise I could make up a timber back board (in fact I did that very thing last year when I thought I was gonna fit a Heat Only Intergas in a different position) but would prefer a more straightforward, "approved", method.

 

[endecotp]

OK, Bernard

Mr.B you need to discover the “ignore” button, it’s much more effective and less effort than your current approach.

 

[muggles]

What would the recommended method be to stand an Intergas Xclusive or Xtreme Combi off the wall to allow pipework to pass vertically behind?

I can see this :- Intergas Stand Off Bracket 36/30 (093206) but it says it's for use with Fitting Kit A, and I didn't think I wanted Fitting Kit A.

I realise I could make up a timber back board (in fact I did that very thing last year when I thought I was gonna fit a Heat Only Intergas in a different position) but would prefer a more straightforward, "approved", method.

What would the recommended method be to stand an Intergas Xclusive or Xtreme Combi off the wall to allow pipework to pass vertically behind?

I can see this :- Intergas Stand Off Bracket 36/30 (093206) but it says it's for use with Fitting Kit A, and I didn't think I wanted Fitting Kit A.

I realise I could make up a timber back board (in fact I did that very thing last year when I thought I was gonna fit a Heat Only Intergas in a different position) but would prefer a more straightforward, "approved", method.

There is a stand off bracket for the X-range in development (I've seen one at HQ) but I'm not sure whether it's been finalised yet. Email The Intergas Shop and ask - Richard and Kieron should have the details. Failing that, the timber method is acceptable

 

[ianmcd]

Mr.B you need to discover the “ignore” button, it’s much more effective and less effort than your current approach.

No leave him alone, its funny Bennyboy is raging

 

[Mr.B]

There is a stand off bracket for the X-range in development (I've seen one at HQ) but I'm not sure whether it's been finalised yet. Email The Intergas Shop and ask - Richard and Kieron should have the details. Failing that, the timber method is acceptable

Ta for that.

I was happy enough to make a timber stand-off previously (shame it won't get used - I was quite proud of it )

Which then leads on to one more query that arose at the time :- I asked Intergas Technical (it might have been Craig if I recall correctly, but could be mistaken) about the necessity of the backboard being non-combustible. The reply was that I should. I was told that whilst it may not be specified in the installation instructions (which I believe it isn't) I should still make it non-combustible to comply with other, less manufacturer specific, regulations - I think he might have quoted BS requirements and/or Building regs ... I don't think he mentioned Gas Safe. It's a year ago so apologies for not recalling the conversation in detail.

I do remember though that, at the time, there was much disagreement over whether a timber backboard needs to resist heat as almost all newish cases are cool and don't present a risk. I gathered that the manufacturers instructions over-ruled the other advice but, in order to save any future problems, I did buy a sheet of 12mm cement board and still have enough left to cut another piece to suit if it was thought to be worth doing.

Nothing more to add re. the other gentleman who lives in a thatched cottage. He hasn't returned, so thats fine.