Is any more proof needed ?

BAS, that's often quoted as the background behind our use of ring finals, but is there any evidence for that story?
An elderly electrical engineer told me some decades ago that the converse was true, and that the 'great and good' within the IEE decided that the post-WW2 building boom was the ideal opportunity to design domestic installations that would owe nothing to history, and would be the envy of the world. Perhaps they were a little over-optimistic...
It seems that BAS (hence the 'oft-quoted story') and your elderly engineer were probably both right. If you look at this article about the hisrtory of ring finals and the BS1363 plug/socket concept, both of those considerations appear to have been part of the thinking.

Kind Regards, John.
Edit: I must learn to type faster than Paul :-)
 
It seems that BAS (hence the 'oft-quoted story') and your elderly engineer were probably both right. If you look at this article about the hisrtory of ring finals and the BS1363 plug/socket concept, both of those considerations appear to have been part of the thinking.

Kind Regards, John.
Edit: I must learn to type faster than Paul :-)
Yes, it seems that economic use of copper was considered but was only one aspect of the design of the then new installation system.
Don't you just love that closing paragraph:
"The British plug and socket and ring final circuit
system has proven itself over many years. Its
development was due to the recognition of an
opportunity seen by leaders during a time of war and
mass destruction. A truly unique, innovative, world
class system was developed by people of vision. A
system that cannot be equalled in terms of safety,
performance and convenience."
 
there is no doubt that millions of tons of copper have been saved over the years by having ring finals in 2.5 rather then 2 x 2.5 radials or a 32A radial in 4mm, but i cannot get my head around why, the powers that be, consider that it was revolutionary in design, considering the overloading potential of the cable of one leg of a broken ring. The testing is immaterial.
 
there is no doubt that millions of tons of copper have been saved over the years by having ring finals in 2.5 rather then 2 x 2.5 radials or a 32A radial in 4mm....
It's not quite as obvious that there will be a significant copper saving as you seem to be suggesting - it depends entirely upon the layout of the circuits. If you simply break a 2.5mm² ring to make two 2.5mm² radials, you'll be using exactly the same amount of copper. Similarly, the layout may be such that one can wire a set of sockets on a 4mm² radial using not much more than half the length of 2.5mm² that would be needed for a ring - yet 4mm² /2 = 2mm², not 2.5mm². The copper savings, if/when they exist, can therefore be very small.

...but i cannot get my head around why, the powers that be, consider that it was revolutionary in design, considering the overloading potential of the cable of one leg of a broken ring.
In the absence of faults, it's actually quite a clever concept. It arose at a time when ('clever' to some) statistical concepts (like diversity and statistical quality/ process control) were coming very much into fashion, and that's probably got something to do with the beliefs that it was 'revolutionary'. As for the risk under fault conditions you describe, I suspect that those who introduced the idea had in the back of their minds the belief (quite probably correct) that the degree of overloading which could occur would not actually result in any serious harm; as we often discuss here, there appear to be some very large 'safety margins' built into what we regard as maximum current-carrying-capacities.

Kind Regards, John.
 
I se what you say john.. in the "absence of faults" ie broken rings it is a great concept, but faults "broken rings occur" and the demands are different now.

I must addmit that i typed it incorrectly. 2 x 1.5 radials with 15A fusing is more copper than 2.5 ring

the link earlier described that it was calculated that 30 percent less copper would be used having ring finals, they were ingenious but designed in a utilitarian age.

we built tanks right for the time but they are now outdated
 
Down with RF's!

Long live radials!

Erm...fused plugs are necessary. :wink:
 
a 3kw heater, a tumble drier, a washing machine, doing the ironing on a bs 3036 or 60898 for prolonged periods on a broken ring is not great. neither is ironing
 
that's because they don't have our wonderful 32A rings, and they aren't as clever as us.
 
Or because - rather sensibly - they simply see absolutely no overall advantage to the system.
 
I se what you say john.. in the "absence of faults" ie broken rings it is a great concept, but faults "broken rings occur" and the demands are different now.
Faults of any sort can obviously occur, but one has to decide how far to go in trying to design with all manner of possible faults in mind. In any event, it can work both ways - "broken CPCs" occur (not that uncommonly) - and in the face of such a fault, a ring is safer than a radial. Also bear in mind what I said before - that, although no-one would suggest that one should design/install a circuit involving 2.5mm² cable (or the Imperial equivalent) carrying 30A, 'those in the know' probably knew, or at least believed, that no actual harm would come from such an occurrence.

I must addmit that i typed it incorrectly. 2 x 1.5 radials with 15A fusing is more copper than 2.5 ring
I can't say that I've ever seen or heard of anyone installing a 1.5mm² radial sockets circuit, and you certainly won't find one mentioned in BS7671 or the OSG.

Kind Regards, John.
 

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