is this ok?

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was helping my brother-in-law fit some light in his living room. when i went to the cu to turn off the power i noticed that inside the cupboard where the cu is situated was a power socket which was wired directly into the cu via the 30a ring main feed.
so this socket, on its own is really a radial but has been taken from the cu ring main so should it be on its own 20a breaker or should a 13a fcu be inserted between the cu and the socket?
 
nabby68 said:
was helping my brother-in-law fit some light in his living room. when i went to the cu to turn off the power i noticed that inside the cupboard where the cu is situated was a power socket which was wired directly into the cu via the 30a ring main feed.
so this socket, on its own is really a radial but has been taken from the cu ring main so should it be on its own 20a breaker or should a 13a fcu be inserted between the cu and the socket?

its acceptable. its a spur, but instead of taking it from a socket, its taken from the CU.
 
thanks andrew, but maybe i,m missing something here, is it a radial (all-be-it, with only one socket) so shouldn't it be on a 20amp mcb?
 
nabby68 said:
thanks andrew, but maybe i,m missing something here, is it a radial (all-be-it, with only one socket) so shouldn't it be on a 20amp mcb?

no. i already told you it was a spur. most likely form the ring main. there is nothin wrong with takin the feed for a spur from the CU. it does the same thing as taking it from a socket
 
so just to clear it up, would it be ok to take,say, another spur from the cu ring?
 
nabby68 said:
so just to clear it up, would it be ok to take,say, another spur from the cu ring?

best not to. you should only take 1 spur from each point
 
thanks andrew for your patience.
but, why is it then that radials for power circuits should be on 20 amp breakers?

and what is to stop me running a spur off the socket i mentioned in my first post and then another and so on....... therefore creating a radial but it would be fed from a 32amp mcb?
 
nabby68 said:
thanks andrew for your patience.
but, why is it then that radials for power circuits should be on 20 amp breakers?

and what is to stop me running a spur off the socket i mentioned in my first post and then another and so on....... therefore creating a radial but it would be fed from a 32amp mcb?

read carefully. spurs are allowed on a ring and can only consist of 1 point unless its fused (at upto 13A). you have a spur but its taken from the MCB in the CU instead of a socket. IT IS NOT A RADIAL. and whats to stop you running another spur from the spur? common sense and its against BS7671.

and a radial wired in 2.5 is on a 20A MCB because 2.5mm is rated 27A. its allowed to be used as a spur since the total load shouldnt excedd 13A
 
The longer answer is, you are sort of right, it is not inherently safe, if the rest of the ring was unloaded, and you plugged enough stuff into the one socket, it would indeed overload the cable but not blow the trip or fuse. This is equally true of any spur from the mid point of a ring too, but the regs will permit it, as in both cases it is assumed that the ring will be uniformly loaded along its length, and no more than one sockets worth (13A) will be drawn from any one spur at any one time.
In the days when the ring fed fixed space heaters and immersion heaters as well as one single socket per room, this was probably true, but since the 1950s, these loads have gradually been given their own circuits, and the number of double and triple sockets has risen dramatically, so arguably it is no longer a valid assumption, but there are very few accidents, not enough to justify a change of practice.
A radial, is normally wired daisy chain, so even if uniformly loaded all the current flows through the first wire to leave the CU. One could argue that it would be just about OK if an individual wire came back from each socket to the CU (star wiring) as each cable would only carry one sockets worth of loading, like the spur case. For reasons of cable economy, this is not done, and such a configuration is not an approved method
In many ways the ring main is an engineering compromise that has outlived its usefulness, and only the UK uses them, but it is so ingrained that it would be hard to stop its use now.
 
mapj1 said:
and the number of double and triple sockets has risen dramatically,

Of course, the three gang outlets incorporate a 13A fuse.
 
The MK ones do certainly have fuse, but not the cheaper ones
NS071L.jpg

at www.buy-electrical.co.uk for example.
On the back it still says 13A max, but no method of guaranteeing that.
 
That one also lacks the mounting points required to fix it to the backbox...
 
Where are we looking? close as i get to the monitor, that picture is too low-res to make out the plastic screw caps.
 
I guess I can see them in the photo 'cos I know where they are..

Better photo:

p1421148_x.jpg


Here you can see one being installed, so the cap has been removed to get to the screw..

CPE25DF3.JPG
 

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