Is this old ceiling rose (now in the loft) safe or acceptable?

[Sprogginz]

My round, enclosed LED bathroom failed me the other day. Because it was reasonably chunky, the old celling rose didn't need to be disturbed as the light itself happily covered it.

The new one however is quite slim in thickness so I've had to make the hole behind the ceiling rose wider so that I could push it through into the loft

If it helps, this photo shows where the ceiling rose now lives. I want to put the insulation back but is it okay or do I need to buy some kind of protector or replace the ceiling rose with something else? The wires seem protected enough by the clear plastic base.

Also, there was an earth wire connected to the old ceiling light but the new one is just plastic and so has no earth connection point. Do I just put some insulation tape at the end of the wire? You can just see it in the photo.

Thanks very much and hope you can help.

 

[terryplumb]

You should replace the rose with a junction box ,a maintenance free one.
The unused earth conductors should be connected together in the junction box.
Good idea to make good / fill the large hole in the ceiling too.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Ther ceiling rose is designed to be screwed to the ceiling.
It is not acceptable for it to be just left in the ceiling void.
There is no strain relief for the cables.

You need a junction box, properly screwed to something solid - ooh, that wooden joist look handy.

These are made for the job

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ501.html

 

[Sprogginz]

That's great, thanks very much.

I got the feeling that some enclosed box would be better but wasn't sure what sort.
I'll be sure to make use of the joist too and fill the hole!

'Tis but a shame that there's no TLC near me, the postage will be more than the item. Maybe I'll try to find something else I need or see if Screwfix/Toolstation have the got the same/similar box. I've actually got 3 cables going in and one out.

Thanks again.

 

[ebee]

A ceiling rose is merely a junction box, it`s a bit better looking that a bog standard ordinary junction box because, traditionally, they were often on view. Simple as that.

 

[Taylortwocities]

The Ashley J501 is stocked in just about every electrical distributor. So ask in your local Edwards, CEF etc. Screwfix/Toolstation are not in the same line of busines.
PS It will wait for a day or two. You can buy one from Amazon, delivered to your door, next day.

But, any 4-terminal junction box of a reasonable size would do the job. Like this 20amp, 4 terminal Screwfix item.


Note, these do not have any cable clamps, so you will need to cleat the cable, (once the junction box has been screqwed to the joist)

 

[Mottie]

Most of my ceiling roses both upstairs and downstairs are above the ceiling with the flex connecting to the light with a connector block. The light support brackets are securely supported by screws going into noggins above the ceiling. I don’t see how I could fit lights with fittings like this any other way.

 

[Taylortwocities]

View attachment 320273View attachment 320274Most of my ceiling roses both upstairs and downstairs are above the ceiling with the flex connecting to the light with a connector block. The light support brackets are securely supported by screws going into noggins above the ceiling. I don’t see how I could fit lights with fittings like this any other way.

Eh?
Your mansion may well have a "octopus" wiring system, or loop in at the switches...

But that's your problem, and nothing to do with @Sprogginz little issue.

 

[Mottie]

But that's your problem, and nothing to do with @Sprogginz little issue.

It’s not a problem for me and if he follows my example, it shouldn’t be a problem for him.

 

[ebee]

Most of my ceiling roses both upstairs and downstairs are above the ceiling with the flex connecting to the light with a connector block. The light support brackets are securely supported by screws going into noggins above the ceiling. I don’t see how I could fit lights with fittings like this any other way.

View attachment 320273 View attachment 320274

One little trick is often a success.
Remove ceiling rose cover. Connect the light fitting then offer it up so the cup part of the light fitting covers the junction (The ceiling rose base plate).
Of course that only applies if the cup is big enough to safely enclose the junction and is properly earthed .

Store the cup away so you can take down the light fitting and re-instate if required later - you move home and want to take the fancy light fitting with you.

Do not attempt this method unless you have sufficient knowledge to make a completely safe job of it.

 

[Mottie]

One little trick is often a success.
Remove ceiling rose cover. Connect the light fitting then offer it up so the cup part of the light fitting covers the junction (The ceiling rose base plate).

I don’t think that would have worked with mine - what would support the weight of the light? Mine have fittings similar to these which is why I had to have the ceiling rose above the ceiling with just the lamp wire coming through.

 

[Taylortwocities]

It’s not a problem for me and if he follows my example, it shouldn’t be a problem for him.

Ok....but you've just shown pictures of a couple of light fittings. Can you reveal the magical trick you have used that will help @Sprogginz ?

You've said

Most of my ceiling roses both upstairs and downstairs are above the ceiling with the flex connecting to the light with a connector block.

But that is the basic problem that the OP has. Ceiling roses are designed to be screwed to the ceiling. they are not suitable to be used as junction boxes in ceilings voids, lofts etc.

 

[Mottie]

they are not suitable to be used as junction boxes in ceilings voids, lofts etc.

Says who? They have connections inside and all the wires are protected. They've been like that for 30 odd years and several different types of lights so that’s good enough for me. The OP can follow my example if he wants, or yours. I don’t care, I’m just telling the OP what I have done with mine. If he is bothered about the rose protruding above the joist, he could always drill a hole through the centre of the joist, feed all the cables through the joist into the rose, connect up and just have the flex going through the ceiling, making good in whatever way he likes.

 

[Taylortwocities]

There's two ways of doing things. You have bodged it and it will work, maybe it wont, maybe someone will catch their foot in one of the cables when they are up in the loft.....
or
you can do it PROPERLY.

The OP has come on here asking for advice and we have advised him how to do it properly.

Yes, he could screw the pendant base to the joist, feed outgoing feed to the lamp from the little hole in the cover, then cleat all of the cables and hope that nothing goes wrong......

 

[Sureitsoff?]

That's great, thanks very much.

I got the feeling that some enclosed box would be better but wasn't sure what sort.
I'll be sure to make use of the joist too and fill the hole!

'Tis but a shame that there's no TLC near me, the postage will be more than the item. Maybe I'll try to find something else I need or see if Screwfix/Toolstation have the got the same/similar box. I've actually got 3 cables going in and one out.

Thanks again.

Tell us where you are and we can point you in the direction of a seller of the aforementioned junc box.

They are available on e-bay with free postage if that helps

Hager J501 downlight junction box *** MULTI BUY DISCOUNT *** FREE POSTAGE *** | eBay

Hager J501 Downlighter Junction Box. JUNCTION BOXES J501 / J803 / J804. We will always help you to have a 100% positive happy buying experience. Why Buy From Us?. WISKA & GEWISS ENCLOSURES.

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