Landlord electrical safety

[SUNRAY]

If the agencies want a higher standard to what the law requires that is up to them, but compliance with 18th edition is misleading, as the 18th says it can comply with an earlier edition, so technically still complying with 18th Edition if installed in 2000 and it complies with BS7671:2001.

And the government document says the minor works or installation certificate must accompany the EICR to show work has been done, there is no government requirement for another EICR. As with an MOT the person writing any report must satisfy himself that no other faults have been introduced during any repair, so it would likely mean starting from scratch, so another fee charged, this is simply not required by the law, but agencies can ask for what they want.

And they do to remove ambiguity. One of my agents insists on a single main switch for total dwelling isolation, including E7 heaters. It was reasonably easy to achieve in my situation but it did involve rearranging the 3m tails in trunkin [but effectively plastered into the wall] which went into sealed devices at one end, they were just about long enough with a bit of fiddling.
Another agent [not one I employ] insists the gas & water etc bonding is done twice and any device sitting within unions [think heating pump, water meter etc] has a bond across the pipes

 

[EFLImpudence]

And they do to remove ambiguity. One of my agents insists on a single main switch for total dwelling isolation, including E7 heaters. It was reasonably easy to achieve in my situation but it did involve rearranging tails which went into sealed devices at one end.

Why? What right have they to demand anything that is not required by the regulations?

Another insists the gas & water etc bonding is done twice

What do you mean by 'done twice'?

and any device sitting within unions [think heating pump, water meter etc] has a bond across the pipes

So, they do not understand bonding and demand things that are not required and might introduce hazards.

 

[SUNRAY]

Why? What right have they to demand anything that is not required by the regulations?

Most companies have terms and conditions, as I'm sure many on here do, they can add what they like as long as they are not breaking any laws.
This agent produces a pack for each property, the second page is emergency procedures and shows how to isolate water, gas, oil, electricity and any other service which may be present.

What do you mean by 'done twice'?

A total duplication of all main bonding, additional earth bar and a second wire to relevant connexions. They use their approved electrician [which happens to be a company I sub to] to inspect before accepting the property on their books.

So, they do not understand bonding

Maybe

and demand things that are not required and might introduce hazards.

but I fail to see how a bond across 2 pipes which are normally connected to each other by a device can introduce an electrical hazard.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Maybe but I fail to see how a bond across 2 pipes which are normally connected to each other by a device can introduce an electrical hazard.

It cannot in a case like that but then the bond is unnecessary.

If the device does not connect the pipes electrically then the pipes might be safer not bonded.

 

[SUNRAY]

If the device does not connect the pipes electrically then the pipes might be safer not bonded.

Fair point.

 

[ericmark]

Another agent [not one I employ] insists the gas & water etc bonding is done twice and any device sitting within unions [think heating pump, water meter etc] has a bond across the pipes

Is that not dangerous? or am I reading it wrong? I know you need to be very careful with a TN-C-S that the incoming metal gas pipe is NOT bonded before the isolation lump, as with loss of PEN the currents can be high enough to melt a metal flexible gas pipe and set the gas on fire.

I remember as said before where because the instruments used to do installation testing are the ones also required to test appliances fixed to the premises as part of the EICR we would do the central heating, and immersion heater, it made sense rather than the guy doing the appliance testing carrying both sets of test gear. So what was tested by each tester was not what was strictly down for each guy to test. And we also added things, like guards on angle grinders, although electrical safe, putting on a sticker that says safe to use with a guard missing is not really good practice.

The adding of items is not really a problem, however clearly any item added to an EICR can only get a C3, you can't call the installation unsatisfactory if there is nothing wrong with it, but there is a problem with an appliance.

I personally wanted a RCD protecting every circuit, even if because of the age of the installation it is not required, and I see nothing wrong with a letting agent saying they want all properties to have RCD protection on all circuits. But the electrician would still need to code as C3 when not all circuits covered not a C2.

During Covid 19 lock down, the police stopped people from going to second homes in their cars, but when stopped they were not breaking road traffic act rules, it was Covid19, so in same way what ever the agency says it wants it can have and not reason why you can't invent a code A2 and define as agency considered this item is required upgrading, but not required under IET regulations.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I know you need to be very careful with a TN-C-S that the incoming metal gas pipe is NOT bonded before the isolation lump,

Then it should be and the other side not bonded.

 

[JohnW2]

Most companies have terms and conditions, as I'm sure many on here do, they can add what they like as long as they are not breaking any laws. ... This agent produces a pack for each property, the second page is emergency procedures and shows how to isolate water, gas, oil, electricity and any other service which may be present.

As you say, any contract can include any T&C, provided it is not unlawful.

However, companies are companies, and like to have clients/work, so if one unilaterally implements Ts&Cs which are 'unusual', and considered by many (potential clients) to be 'unreasonable', then they might find themselves short of clients and income!

Kind regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

Is that not dangerous? or am I reading it wrong? I know you need to be very careful with a TN-C-S that the incoming metal gas pipe is NOT bonded before the isolation lump, as with loss of PEN the currents can be high enough to melt a metal flexible gas pipe and set the gas on fire.

I remember as said before where because the instruments used to do installation testing are the ones also required to test appliances fixed to the premises as part of the EICR we would do the central heating, and immersion heater, it made sense rather than the guy doing the appliance testing carrying both sets of test gear. So what was tested by each tester was not what was strictly down for each guy to test. And we also added things, like guards on angle grinders, although electrical safe, putting on a sticker that says safe to use with a guard missing is not really good practice.

The adding of items is not really a problem, however clearly any item added to an EICR can only get a C3, you can't call the installation unsatisfactory if there is nothing wrong with it, but there is a problem with an appliance.

I personally wanted a RCD protecting every circuit, even if because of the age of the installation it is not required, and I see nothing wrong with a letting agent saying they want all properties to have RCD protection on all circuits. But the electrician would still need to code as C3 when not all circuits covered not a C2.

During Covid 19 lock down, the police stopped people from going to second homes in their cars, but when stopped they were not breaking road traffic act rules, it was Covid19, so in same way what ever the agency says it wants it can have and not reason why you can't invent a code A2 and define as agency considered this item is required upgrading, but not required under IET regulations.

No they don't ask for anything in contravention of 7671, they require additional elements of it.

I still feel things like immersions are part of the installation an not an accessory in just the same way as a light in a conservatory connected to the RFC with a FCU. If the accessory were not permanently wired in but plugged in then I feel it gets very grey.
Years ago a local Scout Hall had some fluo fitting added in a loft area, the guy doing it did a vaguely reasonable job but knowing he was 'not allowed' to to do it he terminated the T&E into a 13A plug which in turn was fed from a 32A circuit with a SFCU which was used as the switch for the lights. I was in 2 minds but pretty much everyone else classed a number of fluo fittings screwed to roof timbers and T&E clipped to the same timbers to be installed and therefore had to be included in the EICR [in those days PIR & required by the building owners].
This takes me on to stage lighting which in many instances consists of a number of installed cables not electrically connected to anything. In the case of my local church hall 1.5mm² 3C flex in 2x2 PVC trunking, 13A sockets on the walls/ceilings etc and IEC plugs. AFAIC that is fixed as it can't simply be picked up and removed without tools. I'm happy to treat it at PAT as their regular electrician won't touch it and if there's 2 of us available it only takes 10 minutes to run through the 40 circuits to check for 'better than' figures.

 

[SUNRAY]

As you say, any contract can include any T&C, provided it is not unlawful.

However, companies are companies, and like to have clients/work, so if one unilaterally implements Ts&Cs which are 'unusual', and considered by many (potential clients) to be 'unreasonable', then they might find themselves short of clients and income!

Kind regards, John

Doesn't seem to be the case as they are one of the better agents in many respects.

 

[JohnW2]

Doesn't seem to be the case as they are one of the better agents in many respects.

That may be true, but I suspect the explanation is more likely to be that few people actually read the T&C (carefully, if at all) and that, even if they do, the great majority would not realise the 'unusualness' and implications of the electrical issues we are discussing.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

No they don't ask for anything in contravention of 7671, they require additional elements of it.

Surely all installations should contain all relevant elements of BS7671.
They are not requiring additional elements of BS7671 but things which are additional to it.

I still feel things like immersions are part of the installation an not an accessory in just the same way as a light in a conservatory connected to the RFC with a FCU. If the accessory were not permanently wired in but plugged in then I feel it gets very grey.

You are not using the correct words; accessories are switches, sockets etc., which would be included in an EICR.
Immersions etc. are appliances.

 

[SUNRAY]

That may be true, but I suspect the explanation is more likely to be that few people actually read the T&C (carefully, if at all) and that, even if they do, the great majority would not realise the 'unusualness' and implications of the electrical issues we are discussing.

Kind Regards, John

That is possibly the case, in fact very likely. However I don't forsee any problems with duplicating the bonding other than cost

In my case the existing agent were not being as proactive as they should as it was a bit out of their area and fairly regular staff changes, knowing they were going to send a local energy assessor when my tenant moved to see to the vacation and having spoken to the propertys upstairs neighbours landlord [who we'd had dealing with due to a shower leak] he described his agent and their office is only 400yards away, I called them and made arrangements to visit immediately the flat was empty. They turned up as soon as I called to say I was ready for them to survey the flat, advised about the single isolation which didn't matter as I fully intended replacing CU, call one of their regular decorators who was also working locally and able to pop round for a quote[ but had to wait 4 weeks for a start which was actually 7 weeks and then Christmas so more like 9 weeks].
Since then every payment has been correct, on time and every enquirey from my tenant or me has been dealt with promptly. So far I've been very happy with them, as and when the other flat I have with the old agent becomes vacant I have every intention of transferring.

In the course of my electrical work I have dealt with a lot of agencies, from the kitchen draw of pokey 5th floor flat to a huge open plan office with umpteen employees and they all seem to have their good points and their bad points and wildly varying commission rates from 8% to over 25% and one of the most expensive was alway an absolute nightmare to deal with and finding keys was always a mission and a half.

 

[SUNRAY]

Surely all installations should contain all relevant elements of BS7671.
They are not requiring additional elements of BS7671 but things which are additional to it.


You are not using the correct words; accessories are switches, sockets etc., which would be included in an EICR.
Immersions etc. are appliances.

Yeah and that was all because I changed what I was posting, accessories was the right word initially and i didn't delete enough.

I know why they ask for duplicated bonding, they tend to get fiddled with in rental properties, the same as sink and bath plugs vanish, and tap washers need replacing 5 times as frequently as ours at home...

 

[ericmark]

I would agree, considering the bulb holder as part of installation and bulb as an appliance does seem to be stretching it a bit. However technically it is, but in the real world we would agree as to who does what even if not strictly following the rules.

Until the new law it really didn't matter who did it as long as done, however no 28 day rule on PAT testing it is simply removed from service, only the EICR has 28 day limit, as yet not too much of a problem as only new tenants so just delays the moving in date, but once it applies to existing tenants a C2 on a immersion heater cut out could mean if new can't be located in time the tenants are evicted.

So it will then be very important as to if an appliance or installation.