Landlord electrical safety

[JohnW2]

And they do to remove ambiguity. One of my agents insists on a single main switch for total dwelling isolation, including E7 heaters.

Assuming that it is regarded as a single installation (including the E7 heaters) then BS7671 also requires that 462.1 & 462.1.201).

Another agent [not one I employ] insists the gas & water etc bonding is done twice and any device sitting within unions [think heating pump, water meter etc] has a bond across the pipes

I suppose the former 'does no harm' (other than to create an unnecessary cost) but, as has been discussed, the latter could, in some circumstances, result in an increase in potential danger.

One has to wonder how it comes to pass that a letting agent has enough expert electrical knowledge for it to be appropriate for them to require things which exceed the minimum required to satisfy BS7671. ... but. given that they have gone down that path, one also wonders why have they stopped at requiring the bonding to be duplicated - they might also have required that CPCs, MCBs and RCDs/RCBOs etc. be 'doubled up'!!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Of course, just as with 'free lunches', there is no such thing as a 'free partial re-test' for MOTs,

Actually, there is and always has been a 'free partial re-test' for MOTs: "You only need a partial retest if you leave the vehicle at the test centre for repair and it’s retested within 10 working days. There’s no fee for this." "You will not have to pay again if you take it back to the same test centre before the end of the next working day for a partial retest on one or more of these items: [long list of items follows]" https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot/retests

I think you have totally misunderstood my point. I have already said all of what you have repeated (including the link) ...

If one leaves the vehicle at the 'test centre' for repairs, then they are obliged (by law) to re-test and issue a 'pass' MOT certificate without charge.

There is also a long list of (mainly minor) 'fail problems' (including tyre replacement) in relation to which the original tester is obliged to undertake a free 'partial retest' (and provide a pass cert) if one returns the vehicle to the original 'test centre' the next working day - see (here) .

If you take it back to the original test centre within 10 days, only a 'partial retest' (of the items which failed) is required, for which a 'partial retest fee' (but never a full fee) 'may' be charged. After 10 days, yes, you would have to pay for a 'full price retest'.

My point was that, just as there is really no such thing as 'a free lunch' (since someone always has to pay), nor are the things called 'free re-tests' truly 'free' - since, again, someone has to pay.

As I said, the situation with MOTs is arguably unfair. The price of an MOT obviously includes provision for a ('free' - i.e. without any further charge) re-test, if required. That means that everyone paying for an MOT is making a contribution towards the cost of re-tests - which means that those who do not require re-tests are actually partially subsidising those who do.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

OK I will admit when I have made a mistake, the government The Building Regulations 2010 UK Statutory Instruments 2010 No. 2214 PART 1 Regulation 2 defines an electrical installation as

“electrical installation” means fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter;

So it seems Ovens, hobs, immersion heaters, central heating, and any other built in appliance i.e. fixed, comes under the EICR, I seem to remember back in the days when I first did my inspection and testing of in service electrical equipment that electrical equipment came as 4 classes, hand portable, portable which seem to remember is under 28 Kg or on wheels, can't remember the name given to stuff not fixed, and last was fixed.

 

[SUNRAY]

OK I will admit when I have made a mistake, the government The Building Regulations 2010 UK Statutory Instruments 2010 No. 2214 PART 1 Regulation 2 defines an electrical installation as

So it seems Ovens, hobs, immersion heaters, central heating, and any other built in appliance i.e. fixed, comes under the EICR, I seem to remember back in the days when I first did my inspection and testing of in service electrical equipment that electrical equipment came as 4 classes, hand portable, portable which seem to remember is under 28 Kg or on wheels, can't remember the name given to stuff not fixed, and last was fixed.

Thanks for this, its kind of how I feel it should be but nice to see a clarification.

 

[JohnW2]

Thanks for this, its kind of how I feel it should be but nice to see a clarification.

I don't know about you, but I think that 'clarification' probably would benefit from a bit of clarifying

Do you think that, in its definition of an 'electrical installation', the Building Regs intend that 'fixed electrical equipment' should include anything which is hard-wired and either (a) too big/heavy to be easily moved (e.g. most large kitchen/utility appliances) and/or (b) which are 'fixed' to the structure of the building (e.g. boilers, oven hoods, extractor fans, and even bell transformers and smoke/heat detectors etc.) ?

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

I don't know about you, but I think that 'clarification' probably would benefit from a bit of clarifying

Do you think that, in its definition of an 'electrical installation', the Building Regs intend that 'fixed electrical equipment' should include anything which is hard-wired and either (a) too big/heavy to be easily moved (e.g. most large kitchen/utility appliances) and/or (b) which are 'fixed' to the structure of the building (e.g. boilers, oven hoods, extractor fans, and even bell transformers and smoke/heat detectors etc.) ?

Kind Regards, John

I have always felt the 2 classifications should broadly be portable kit that is not fixed into the building and is plugged in. Anything hard wired or mechanically fixed in the buildng ie not a simple unplug and remove should be classified as fixed. I'm not happy to have some items expressly put into the opposite classification, for example for weight or size as testing gets confused and missed. However if such exclusions [or is it inclusions?] are made we need to come up with a rock solid means of making sure those items don't get forgotten.

I don't see any difficulty with the terms fixed ie electrically or mechanically fixed in place, or portable ie portable can be moved/removed without removing fixings.

 

[ericmark]

The question in with reference to the EICR do you use the "The Building Regulations 2010 UK Statutory Instruments 2010 No. 2214 PART 1 Regulation 2" or "An assembly of associated electrical equipment having co-ordinated characteristics to fulfil Specific purposes." who wrote the schedule for the EICR the government or the IET/BSi?

As @JohnW2 says it does not help having multi definitions for the same phrase. Or should we look at City & Guilds for the definition as they are the people who set the course and exam for inspection and testing.

Or is it yet another let the courts decide?

To me the big question as yet unanswered is if there is a C2 and it can't be corrected within 28 days, what then? As far as I can see the landlords hands are tied, he can only say sorry you will need to vacate the premises until the fault can be fixed.

I see the Welsh government has only made it a requirement for multi occupancy, I would assume that means when for example 4 or 5 students live in one house, I do not think a family of 4 is considered as multi occupancy. They say there reasons for multi occupancy is they don't want to increase the homeless numbers.

So it seems the Welsh government is worried about the situation when it gets a C2 and it can't be repaired within the time scale, and I will admit I did consider renting my old house, but considered it was too much hassle, it has not really reduced the number of rental properties as my son is buying my house and letting out his old house.

However we must consider if we make an error with an EICR are we putting some one out on the street and compounding the homeless problem? At end of day the landlord may have a reduced income, but the tenant may be made homeless, how is any law that does that good?

 

[SUNRAY]

The question in with reference to the EICR do you use the "The Building Regulations 2010 UK Statutory Instruments 2010 No. 2214 PART 1 Regulation 2" or "An assembly of associated electrical equipment having co-ordinated characteristics to fulfil Specific purposes." who wrote the schedule for the EICR the government or the IET/BSi?

As @JohnW2 says it does not help having multi definitions for the same phrase. Or should we look at City & Guilds for the definition as they are the people who set the course and exam for inspection and testing.

Or is it yet another let the courts decide?

To me the big question as yet unanswered is if there is a C2 and it can't be corrected within 28 days, what then? As far as I can see the landlords hands are tied, he can only say sorry you will need to vacate the premises until the fault can be fixed.

I see the Welsh government has only made it a requirement for multi occupancy, I would assume that means when for example 4 or 5 students live in one house, I do not think a family of 4 is considered as multi occupancy. They say there reasons for multi occupancy is they don't want to increase the homeless numbers.

So it seems the Welsh government is worried about the situation when it gets a C2 and it can't be repaired within the time scale, and I will admit I did consider renting my old house, but considered it was too much hassle, it has not really reduced the number of rental properties as my son is buying my house and letting out his old house.

However we must consider if we make an error with an EICR are we putting some one out on the street and compounding the homeless problem? At end of day the landlord may have a reduced income, but the tenant may be made homeless, how is any law that does that good?

Regardles of what the 28day rule says an electrical issue can be made safe, even if temporarily, enabling the tenant to stay in place as long as the property is habitable of course.

 

[ericmark]

If the EICR is sensible is see no problem, but if some one goes OTT and says rewire required how can any temporary fix get around a rewire? Same with a new consumer unit.

So an EICR says you need to spend £2000 to correct, you have been on the edge as to if worth letting the property, and you think great, this means property not inhabitable so I can get rid of tenants and sell. So yet another family hunting for a home.

Remember landlord do have bad tenants and are looking for any excuse to get rid. So you can hear the talk between landlord and electrician, I want to think I am a good landlord so be sure to tell me if anything needs doing and the electrician gives him the ammunition he wants.

 

[JohnW2]

I have always felt the 2 classifications should broadly be portable kit that is not fixed into the building and is plugged in. Anything hard wired or mechanically fixed in the buildng ie not a simple unplug and remove should be classified as fixed.

Fair enough - as I was implying, that's certainly one possible interpretation.

Do I therefore take it that you are happy for all items such as I described (e.g. most large kitchen/utility appliances, boilers, oven hoods, extractor fans, bell transformers and smoke/heat detectors etc.), if hard-wired, count (at least as far as the Building Regs are concerned) as 'part of the electrical installation ?

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

We've been quite lucky with tenants [that's not to say we've had no problems] but I think a lot of that reflects on us being good LL's, We always try to keep the properties in good order, nicely decorated between tenants, good floor coverings, no dripping taps or cisterns etc, I even tend to change all switches and sockets if one is damaged. Therefore our agents try to make a good match. One of our neighbours has an identical flat but refuses to spend any avoidable money, [he will happily paint over a chair rub mark on a wall but it wouldn't occur to him to paint the whole wall] EDIT: actually he would probably try to avoid even doing that cover-up. the result is better class tenants come to view, take one look and leave [oh I hate the term but I can't think of something better]. He ends up with a lower rent income and rediculous amounts of damage to keep botching.

Fair enough - as I was implying, that's certainly one possible interpretation.

Do I therefore take it that you are happy for all items such as I described (e.g. most large kitchen/utility appliances, boilers, oven hoods, extractor fans, bell transformers and smoke/heat detectors etc.), if hard-wired, count (at least as far as the Building Regs are concerned) as 'part of the electrical installation ?

Kind Regards, John

Yes If they are fixed in place or hard wired I'm happy to class them fixed and not portable. Freestanding WM, DW, Fridge etc are portable but integrated are fixed.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes If they are fixed in place or hard wired I'm happy to class them fixed and not portable.

I don't think anyone could dispute that if they are literally fixed to the structure of a building then they are 'fixed', and it's probably reasonable to say the same of anything hard-wired, even if it is not literally fixed to the building (other than by an electric cable).

However, that was not really my question. I was aaking whether you were happy to regard all of the items I mentioned (all of which, by your definition, are 'fixed') as being "parts of the electrical installation", in contrast to, say, plugged in large kitchen appliances which are not 'part of the installation'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

By the IET PAT testing book, the fridge was often fixed and washing machine portable because there are often wheels on the washing machine.

The batching plant I worked on was portable, came on 22 articulated loads.

But it is back to the age old problem, guy doing EICR does not test appliances as not in his remit, and guy doing portable appliance testing does not test anything not portable. In an ideal world the washer, fridge/freezer, central heating etc are all on maintenance contracts, so are not required to be tested with either guy, however I have had items on maintenance contracts where annually they are serviced and also had it where they only came out is it breaks down.

I was reading a thread on one forum where the house owner had some insurance from an energy supply company which included an annually inspection, he was convinced noting wrong with his house as the inspector had never found anything wrong with annual inspection.

All inspections are down to the guy doing the inspection, and I have seen where some one gave a C1 to a consumer unit because the plastic blanks could be removed without a tool, and can't say he was wrong.

 

[SUNRAY]

I don't think anyone could dispute that if they are literally fixed to the structure of a building then they are 'fixed', and it's probably reasonable to say the same of anything hard-wired, even if it is not literally fixed to the building (other than by an electric cable).

However, that was not really my question. I was aaking whether you were happy to regard all of the items I mentioned (all of which, by your definition, are 'fixed') as being "parts of the electrical installation", in contrast to, say, plugged in large kitchen appliances which are not 'part of the installation'.

Kind Regards, John

I'm not sure what else you are asking as I think I've already answered you question.

Yes If they are fixed in place or hard wired I'm happy to class them fixed and not portable.

Freestanding WM, DW, Fridge etc are portable
but
integrated (fixed in using tools) WM, DW, Fridge etc are fixed.

Do I therefore take it that you are happy for all items such as I described (e.g. most large kitchen/utility appliances, boilers, oven hoods, extractor fans, bell transformers and smoke/heat detectors etc.), if hard-wired, count Kind Regards, John

Yes all of the mentioned hard wired or screwed in devices I believe should be classed as fixed.

I know that some point blank class plugged in as portable, on that basis if we use a very large socket and plug between meter and CU the whole property would be classed as portable, which IMO is not the case so I don't think it can be the only qualification.

The batching plant I worked on was portable, came on 22 articulated loads.

Was it hard wired or plugged in?

 

[JohnW2]

I'm not sure what else you are asking as I think I've already answered you question. ... Yes all of the mentioned hard wired or screwed in devices I believe should be classed as fixed.

Yes, you've answered that question, and I think we have exactly the same view of what probably should be regarded as 'dixed' electrical equipment.

However, my question is whether you think that the authors of the Building Regs actually intended that all equipment which is 'fixed', by that definition, are part of 'the electrical installation'. For example, whether they intended that, say, hard-wired bell transformers or smoke alarms should be considered as 'parts of the electrical installation', and whether they intended that, say, a large kitchen appliance should be 'part of the electrical installation' if connected via an FCU but not if it is 'plugged in'.

I suppose it's just possible that they did not think of connection via an FCU as being 'hard-wired', but I would have thought they would.

Talking of kitchen appliances, dual-fuel cookers with a single 'plugged-in' oven present an interesting question. I'm not up-to-date with such things, but I presume that the gas regs still require that an appliance with a gas hob should be prevented from toppling by either a bracket or a chain attached to the wall. We can probably agree that a bracket would render the item 'fixed', but what would you say about a chain?

Kind Regards, John