LSF / LSOH Twin & Earth

[NotHimAgain]

The whole idea of the Euro Plug project was that all existing plugs and sockets would be phased out. The plug was deliberately designed so that it did not fit any outlet that existed in the world .

I have papers on it somewhere - but they are well hidden . I was not directly involved with the project, but I used to see some of the output from the committee.

It was all a long time ago, but if I remember correctly, it had pins with a flattened 'Z' cross section. This ruled out fused pins and that is why a UK variant with a fuse in the outlet was proposed.

Most countries did not want a fuse as their systems did not require them - they would never agree to a fuse in the plug body as, in their view, it made the unit too large. The purpose of the UK variant was to provide a means of transition from the BS 1363 system to the new one - without having to rewire all of those ring mains. The other EU countries did not have this legacy circuit problem and the new Euro Plug could have been used on their circuits along with their old types.

The project stalled after 25 years of work - not long for these things - the colour coding change took about the same length of time. It may not be dead, but I am no longer in the loop so I don't know.

One reason why it failed was because the UK could, if it wished, resist such change to protect its industry - but many of the accessory manufacturers are now no longer UK companies and they may take a different view.

If the manufacturers want it they will get it. If you don't believe me ask yourself how the colour change got through .

 

[IJWS15]

As a consumer I find this an interesting, and somewhat surprising debate.

Didn't we effectively have fuses in the sockets (well at the dist board end and not in the socket) when we had round pin plugs in 2, 5 and 15A versions - surely that would be a retrograde step as what is to stop a DIYer changinf a 5 amp socket for a 15 amp socket. All the fixed wiring needs the same rating.

Having stayed in several properties in France and looked at the CUs what sticks out is how many RCDs and CBs they have. One is three bedroom, 1 bathroom, 1 shower, single kitchen/dining/sitting room and washer in shed outside. It has more RCDs and MCBs than our 5 bed 3 recep plus Kitchen conservatory and garage but there are few outlets and lots of extension leads with multi-socket outlets in them. These are traditionally seen in the UK as a safety/fire risk.

Also we changed to the square pin socket as a safety measure but round pin are still used, and still available for sale - why change again when we will just further complicate the situation?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

which is Italian? comes in 16A (left) and 10A (right) versions..

I believe it is. It also comes in dual versions - I have one which has split pins, so that they will mate with different sized apertures, and a little thumbwheel on the body which moves the outer pins in and out.

I'm sure the whole thing is as sound as a bell.

the problem with inline is that it makes them reversible unless you used rectangular pins with one set at right angles to the other..

Or just have asymmetric spacing between the pins.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

that's a hybrid plug you show there, not a schuko..

I know.

the 13A plug will never be phased out..

This design is used not only in the United Kingdom, but also in Ireland, Sri Lanka, Bahrain, UAE, Qatar, Yemen, Oman, Cyprus, Malta, Gibraltar, Botswana, Ghana, Hong Kong, Macau, Brunei, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Kenya, Uganda, Nigeria, Mauritius, Iraq, Kuwait, Tanzania and Zimbabwe. BS 1363 is also standard in several of the former British Caribbean colonies such as Belize, Dominica, St. Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines and Grenada. It is also used in Saudi Arabia in 230 V installations.

Not many of those are in Europe.

 

[ericmark]

Not sure what the 13A plug has to do with cable types? But the consumer regulations were changed some years back which require items sold in UK to be fitted with 13A plug. Statutory Instrument 1994 No. 1768
The Plugs and Sockets etc. (Safety) Regulations 1994 mean that no longer can manufactures design and produce a plug and offer it for sale in UK as a replacement for the 13A plug. It would need an act of parliament to allow it to happen.

For Offices and Schools I think BS6396 already requires fuses in socket outlets of extension leads which seems rather pointless.

The Canalis busbar trunking has non reversible fused plugs and I was very impressed when I used it for lighting in a factory but does not matter how good. To use those plugs in domestic would need a law change.

 

[SUNRAY]

Not sure what the 13A plug has to do with cable types? But the consumer regulations were changed some years back which require items sold in UK to be fitted with 13A plug. Statutory Instrument 1994 No. 1768
The Plugs and Sockets etc. (Safety) Regulations 1994 mean that no longer can manufactures design and produce a plug and offer it for sale in UK as a replacement for the 13A plug. It would need an act of parliament to allow it to happen.

For Offices and Schools I think BS6396 already requires fuses in socket outlets of extension leads which seems rather pointless.

The Canalis busbar trunking has non reversible fused plugs and I was very impressed when I used it for lighting in a factory but does not matter how good. To use those plugs in domestic would need a law change.

Thanks for providing the link. I will dispute the 'legal requirement' for manufacturer to fit a 13A plug and I quote a part of the above link:-

(3) Where there is a requirement in any provision of these Regulations that an electrical device shall conform to a British Standard, including where conformity is required for approval by a notified body, such requirement shall be satisfied if the electrical device conforms to any standard or specification recognised for use in a member State, provided that conformity to such a standard or specification provides a level of safety equivalent to that which would be provided by conformity to the relevant British Standard, and any reference to such a requirement shall be construed accordingly.

My interpretation of this is, any item sold must be compatible with, BS1363 or any other standard, from any member state. ie CE marked.

Does this act only apply to domestic equipment?

I am frequently in public entertainment situations where its VERY common to see BS1363, BS4343, IEC (6/10) and a selection of 'continental' multiway sockets side by side without any apparent complications.
Plus of course 'professional stage lighting' will never ever use 13A plugs as they are far too unreliable.

 

[IJWS15]

Changing/issuing Statutory Instruments (SIs) does not need an act of parliament, just for an Act to give someone (normally a secretary of state (Minister)) the power to issue them. There are maybe 50 acts a year but thousands of SIs.

I was sold a PC by that well known computer store earlier this year and it had a lead with a shuko plug in the box (well maybe not shuko but 3 pin for France). Too much effort to go and complain - just used the lead off the old one.

 

[RF Lighting]

Plus of course 'professional stage lighting' will never ever use 13A plugs as they are far too unreliable.

That's not entirely true now is it.

Stage lighting is an entirely different beast.

Every socket is wired on a radial circuit with a much smaller supply than a standard ring final circuit. They are usually fused at 10A at the dimmer end, so a 13A fuse in the plug would be pointless.

Not to mention that stage lighting sockets are all fed by dimmers and plugging a standard appliance into a dimmed socked could do all sorts of damage to the equipment or the dimmer. Using a 'non standard' socket prevents this from occouring.

 

[SUNRAY]

Plus of course 'professional stage lighting' will never ever use 13A plugs as they are far too unreliable.

That's not entirely true now is it.

Stage lighting is an entirely different beast.

Every socket is wired on a radial circuit with a much smaller supply than a standard ring final circuit. They are usually fused at 10A at the dimmer end, so a 13A fuse in the plug would be pointless.

Not to mention that stage lighting sockets are all fed by dimmers and plugging a standard appliance into a dimmed socked could do all sorts of damage to the equipment or the dimmer. Using a 'non standard' socket prevents this from occouring.

Whats not entirely true, That 13A are not used or they are too unreliable?

 

[RF Lighting]

It has nothing to do with 13A plugtops being unreliable, because they are not.

They are not used in theatres for the reasons I listed in my earlier post.

 

[SUNRAY]

It has nothing to do with 13A plugtops being unreliable, because they are not.

They are not used in theatres for the reasons I listed in my earlier post.

I don't disagree with your earlier post regarding the arrangements for stage lighting. In professional dimmers the mcb's are likely to be C12 , C13 or C16.

13A plugs are CERTAINLY NOT as reliable as 5A or 15A. The constant plugging in and out has always resulted in movement of the live pin and fuse, causing loosening of the spring clips resulting in poor contact. Even with more expensive one like MK.

I have not yet found a 13A plug or socket that can run at 13A continuously and wish some one would give me a pound for every one I have replaced due to overheating, I reckon it would give me at least a months holiday. I would not expect to have doubts about running a 15A plug or socket at 15A (or more, 5KW lamps!) continuously.

In the theatre lighting environment plugs tend to get knocked about a lot when luminaires are put in and out of service, stacked and restacked in various piles and transported in barrows and lorries. 13A plugs did start getting put into service in this field but its not taken too long to realise the error when changing plugs more often than when using 5A or 15A. BS4343 is being used more and more now for stage lighting as the pins are less prone to getting squashed, knocked and loosened, even schools are specifying them now. I reckon the work I do is around 5% 5A, 35% BS4343 & 60% 15A. Last summer I replaced around 150 13A sockets, and associated plugs, for 15A in 2 schools and both installations were only only a year old and done by the same KCC approved electrical contractor.

Most of my extension leads are now BS4343 and use short 13A ends for 3 reasons:-
1. The connectors on a short cable (less than a metre) suffer less damage than those on a long one.
2. When the short cable fails its quicker to change than the long one.
3. BS4343 are far more reliable than others.

In the 20 or so years that I've been using BS4343 I can recall only one failing in service, in the 40 or so years I've been using BS1363 I cant even try to guess the number of failures in service, its certainly counted in ten's rather than one's.

I will say that I feel most of the early 13A plugs were ok but it didn't take too many years for the quality to drop for economy reasons and some real crap to appear. The crap did seem to disappear for a while, lets say around 20 years ago, but recently I'm finding the 13A plugs on some of the oriental imports leaves something to be desired.

Sorry for the long reply, I'm only passing on my experience.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Here's my theory:

A significant factor in relative reliability is that BS4343s were originally made when companies tried to make things well and weren't faced with competing with manufacturers who sought low cost at the expense of quality, and satisfying moronic customers who couldn't see any downside with always buying the cheapest they could find.

4343s are still made to those standards because it isn't worth the cost of re-certifying a new design.

 

[Spark123]

13A plugs are CERTAINLY NOT as reliable as 5A or 15A. The constant plugging in and out has always resulted in movement of the live pin and fuse, causing loosening of the spring clips resulting in poor contact. Even with more expensive one like MK.

I can't imagine that a 13A (BS1363) plug would be pulled that many more times than a 15A (BS546) plug to the extent that the terminals would work loose.
The major reason I believe that the theatre world like to use BS546 or ceeforms is that the protection is located in the accessable dimmer - not 30ft up in the air in a plug local to the lamp should it pop mid performance!
All my 7 dimmer packs have BS546 sockets, each pair of which are fused at 10A.

 

[plugwash]

Not to mention that stage lighting sockets are all fed by dimmers and plugging a standard appliance into a dimmed socked could do all sorts of damage to the equipment or the dimmer. Using a 'non standard' socket prevents this from occouring.

At least the last theatre I was involved with used 15A sockets for the switched but not dimmed outlets and I belive there were also some small lamps (things like table lamps used by the band) in use that had 13A plugs.

The result was that there were quite a few 15A-13A adaptors arround (both adaptor leads and socket doublers with 15A pins but 13A holes) so some idiot could quite easilly have connected an unsuitable load to a dimmer.

 

[SUNRAY]

13A plugs are CERTAINLY NOT as reliable as 5A or 15A. The constant plugging in and out has always resulted in movement of the live pin and fuse, causing loosening of the spring clips resulting in poor contact. Even with more expensive one like MK.

I can't imagine that a 13A (BS1363) plug would be pulled that many more times than a 15A (BS546) plug to the extent that the terminals would work loose.
The major reason I believe that the theatre world like to use BS546 or ceeforms is that the protection is located in the accessable dimmer - not 30ft up in the air in a plug local to the lamp should it pop mid performance!
All my 7 dimmer packs have BS546 sockets, each pair of which are fused at 10A.

Pins tend to be loose fitted in 13A plugs (as are many modern 5A & 15A)and one end of the fuseholder is usually directly mounted on the loose pin so the constant handling and flexing damages what is supposedly a rigid connexion resulting in a high resistance joint. This is unreliable!
Its invariably the live pin that has the overheating problem, is it just coincidence that its the unreliable pin that has the fuse mounted on it?
Generally its not the wire termination that has the problem, its the fuseholder thats unreliable.

The most likely reason's for a fuse to pop is lamp failure in which case the fuse blowing will not matter, or fuse (or more likely fuseholder) failure due to overheating or arcing caused by poor contact. This affects reliability and is a fire risk!

I was not meaning the 10A fuse is wrong, simply adding adding that professional dimmers racks often have MCB's of the higher ratings. Recently I have encountered some C25's & C32's too.
The dimmer packs you have chosen to standardise on have that arrangement, the packs I and the people I work with have chosen to standardise on are 24 channels with 13A or 16A MCB'b wired to a patch board of 4 19way 25A, 24 15A & 24 16A sockets, between us we have around 30.

My posts are based on my experience in the field which spans nearly 50 years and started with single sheathed rubber or asbestos flex and 2pin 2A or 5A connectors.

In my opinion the biggest damage problems to plugs is cables being dragged along the ground and the plugs pins getting bounced around all the obstructions and then dumped in flight cases with 200Kg of cable dropped on top. The fllight case is then trundled 1/2 mile to the lorry, down a flight of stairs over a few lumps and bumps and ramps etc. With the best will in the world when a team of operatives is working on large system its difficult stopping that.