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Miele W828

Discussion in 'Appliances' started by beano1939, 6 Apr 2008.

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  1. beano1939

    beano1939

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    I have a Miele W828 washing machine which has been a workhorse for 7 years but has now failed.

    It takes in water, agitates and then immediately pumps out. The 'rinses' light flashes continuously and the 'anti-crease/finish' light comes on. This pattern occurs on all wash and rinse programmes.

    I have cleaned both filters in the inlet hose and the outlet filter too, I have also removed and cleaned the pressure switch unit from the drum and its hose to the pcb. It wasn't blocked. I replaced the motor brushes 18 months ago.

    Any advice would be most welcome please or is the machine Kaput!? beano1939
     
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  2. HarryKiri

    HarryKiri

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    Hey beano1939,

    Our W828 now has the same problem.

    For what it is worth, I can offer the following so far ...

    By altering settings on the panel, I found the fault sequence switching and timing on a cold wash is different to hot, it seems to branch to a different routine - flashs the rinse light for less than a second, then waits quite a while before deciding to continue on with the shutdown sequence.

    It's interesting that the monitoring circuits take an extended time to act on a fault when the cold wash is selected ... not sure why that is.

    Have you made any progress yet?

    Edited for relevancy.
     
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  3. beano1939

    beano1939

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    Hello Harry Kiri

    Many thanks for your reply. Yes, your symptoms seem similar to mine. However, following your suggestion, I have now checked the heater. It has some resistance, so I applied power directly to it (not forgetting to earth the drum and putting some water in!). It heated up ok so I thought perhaps it may be the thermostat, but this works as well I think. Removing it and applying some heat makes it change resistance progressively to closed circuit. So now I am stuck again and beginning to think the problem must be in the electronics, which I don't understand. Incidentally access to the inside of the machine is as follows: remove the top which I guess you have done. Remove the detergent drawer and undo the three screws now visible you will need a Torx T-20 driver for this. Open the door undo the three 10mm bolts around the aperature. Remove the kick panel, detach the filter drain hose from its door. Just below there is a clip holding the bottom of the front panel. Unscrew this. The whole front should now hinge open to the right. Good Luck. Let me know how you get on.
     
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  4. HarryKiri

    HarryKiri

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    Hey Beano1939,

    No joy yet, but here's an update.

    Currently, when water initially enters the drum and reaches normal level, the rinse light flashes immediately. The drum does not alternate direction in a wash action before the rinse light starts to flash. I could have sworn that when I first looked at it, there was a short wash period ....

    Data below from measurements on our W828.

    The heater resistance measured 24 ohms (Fluke 8050A digimeter). This correlates with a heater power of circa 2 Kilowatts (which is about right). Checked resistance to earth (no Megger available) - Fluke measures open circuit between heater element to earth. Found cct. diagram of the W828 adjacent to the drain cavity. I'm puzzled by a couple of the symbols used - haven't seen them previously, not sure what device is represented.
    Good design practice would ensure the logic board continuously monitors the water temperature sensor, otherwise a failed heater relay could boil the water in the drum.

    I was surprised to find the main drum motor is a DC motor. A miniature alternator is mounted on the end of its shaft, and the output produced is fed back to the logic/control board, where it is measured, so that the logic board can calculate how fast the drum motor is spinning. During internet searches, I found a reference somewhere or other, to a different Miele model activating the flashing rinse light when that feedback voltage was missing.

    I connected a variable DC power supply to terminals 3 and 4 on the drum motor, slowly raised the external supply up to 12 to 13 volts. The drum began to rotate, reaching about 2 revs per second at the 12/13 volts point (current drawn roughly 3 Amps). With the motor drawing 3A D.C., the alternator output (terminals 1 and 2) was approx 3.25 volts (AC Volts).

    The motor and feedback "micro alternator" seem to be working OK, but am now out of time. Next will be search for possible fuse, check of relays in the motor supply path (not sure how easy they will be to access yet) and the 20 Volts itself. Unfortunately, the schematic of the logic control board is not included inside the machine (and PLC's aren't my strong point anyway), so if the problem turns out to be on the logic board, it will be costly.

    Edited for relevancy.
     
  5. beano1939

    beano1939

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    Hi Harry Kiri

    Re-reading your last posting reminded me that I too thought my machine washed a little before pumping out, but now it doesn't, it just fills and then empties. So our symptoms seem very similar.

    I would normally have suspected the motor brushes, but having replaced these 18 months ago, I assumed they were ok. Actually, then I replaced the whole end unit including the alternator stator at a cost of over £60.

    Now I have removed the motor and checked the brushes to find that whilst one is fine the other is completely worn out. The motor comm. is not too good either so it should be skimmed. A new motor is out of the question. I will try to obtain some new separate brushes and reassemble to test. Will let you know the result. Incidentally I cannot locate any replaceable fuses.
     
  6. beano1939

    beano1939

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    Hello Harry Kiri
    It was the motor brushes at least it was one of them. I don't understand why one wore so much more than the other. The replacements 18 months ago were genuine Miele. Anyway now I have tried some cheap brushes (Miele are around £30) to see what happens and it works perfectly.

    Unfortunately my laundry manager could not wait while I played around, so now we have two working Miele machines!

    Thanks for your communications. I would be interested if you have solved the problem with yours.
    Regards
    Beano1939
     
  7. HarryKiri

    HarryKiri

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    Hi Beano,

    Sorry for the delay. Times been an issue, but have a spare machine in mums granny flat!! So put on back burner til now.

    Asked for comment from Miele agents and also sell me a Workshop Manual. Needless to say, it seems "it isn't available in English, do you speak German?" However they did comment that it was either brushes or a fault on the relay board.

    As my previous test showed that the DC drum motor seems to run normally when an external DC power supply is applied to the motor, I'm assuming it isn't brushes.

    Started tracing out PC tracks and incoming wires on the relay board. Quite tricky, more relays shown on the annoyingly *very limited* circuit than are actually on the board ... so far, my guess is that the extras must be *partly* applicable to a similar but higher featured model in the same line up. I am still trying to work out where 2K1 and 8K1 is physically located, for these are necessary to all models. The space where 2K1 was designed to live seems to be vacant, with a wiring bridge across the space. Initial suspicion is that there has been a factory modification that is not shown on the limited schematic, time will tell.

    I've pinpointed all the other relays without too much hassle, am now moseying around the bridge rectifier tracing tracks, haven't yet attempted to verify what is or isn't working ie. 8K1 and whether the bridge rectifier is actually producing an output.

    An issue taking a bit of time was attempting to figure out what the device represented by a long black rectangular bar with 3 wire input was. By deduction (could be wrong I guess), this is probably a resistive speed control, with only two speeds and no feedback applied, high resistance for low speed drum rotation and vice versa.

    This is a work in progress ... will report back when I have headway worth posting on. (Am away from home regularly for long periods at the moment).

    One thing I'm puzzled about is what symptoms the machine exhibited, which caused you to replace the brushes 18 months ago? Kind of wondering if I'm on the wrong track tracing the relay board out ...
     
  8. beano1939

    beano1939

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    Hi Harry Kiri
    As I remember, the symptoms of worn brushes are usually slow speed, no spin and eventually no drive at all. I used to get this every two years or so with Hotpoint machines, but my Miele lasted six and a half years before it needed a new set. It does get very heavy use. The Miele brushes are restrained in their holders (the leads are spot welded to the sides) so that they do not wear right down to damage the comm. The result is that they will eventually lose contact.

    In your case, I understand that you obtained drive from a separate power source, but it may be worth still checking the brushes as they may just be making contact but not enough for full performance. If the machine has been used a lot and if there is evidence of significant carbon dust externally, then they may be worn out. You have to remove the motor, best done from underneath. You may then be able to see the brushes with a torch. If the printing on them RK473 is visible, then they are worn as this is at the top end. The brush unit is unplugged (pulled off) after removing screws, but don't do this unless you have to because the brushes may be damaged by the end of the comm as the unit is withdrawn.

    I am not an expert on electronics, but did check the pcb for obvious signs of poor paths, bad soldering or burning, but thats as far as I went before finding the real problem was brushes again. The machine is stilll working fine. Regards beano1939
     
  9. incognito

    incognito

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    We have just been through the same process with our machine which also has the same warning lights. We have looked at the brushes, checked the engine and finally found that it is the fuse on the control board el200d. However, having replaced that it has immediately blown again. Thank goodness we didn't buy an new board. So now the question is, what could be causing the fuse to blow?

    The rest of the machine is in such a good state, it would be criminal to toss it and buy a new one with everyone banging on about the environment. however, I have to say they don't make it easy to be green!
     
  10. 123out

    123out

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    Ive got the same fault as the both of you on my miele w980, I'm hoping that its the brushes as you previously located. I will keep you informed!
    Any Ideas where would be best to source parts, other than Miele?
     
  11. incognito

    incognito

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    There are some on ebay and a few German companies seem to see lots second hand of different parts, guaranteed and in return for your similar part (obviously not brushes). Most of these are listed on ebay or various forums but come up if you search under the part name. They seem very helpful and I am all for recycling like this particularly if its a quarter of the price or less!
     
  12. 123out

    123out

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    Hi

    Unfortunately the brushes were fine. I'm now trying to find some info on the pcb/ motor so that I can check out voltages etc from board and probably just put the megger on the motor. I have found a web site that repairs pcbs http://www.qer.biz/servReps.htm, I might give them a try if I can't locate the fault myself?
    The board looks spottless, I will have to test triacs etc when I get chance. If anyone has any info on this machine Miele W980 it would be gratefully received.
     
  13. incognito

    incognito

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    Hi there,

    A German guy told us that this fault is common and it is usually the board and often goes after doing a big wash like a carpet, which we didn't! He will mend the board for you if you send it to him. I can give you the link if you are interested.
     
  14. Flapjack

    Flapjack

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    I have a W842 sounds like the same problem I bought a motor on ebay thinking it was that which was causing the problem as my drum did not rotate and the washing machine broke whilst washing are heaviest blanket.

    Incognito could you give me the contact details for the german chap to repair the pcb.. :?:

    thank you

    Flapjack :)
     
  15. incognito

    incognito

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    Hi there,

    If you search for el200 (which is the name of the control board) on ebay or google you will find a few guys who either send you a new board or will repair yours if you send it to them. They are on the German and Austrian and Dutch ebay sites. This is the guy we used or are about to, who seemed helpful.

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=290238219745

    This guy sells them
    http://cgi.ebay.at/Miele-Elektronik...yZ136785QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

    If you are interested, my partner wrote all the details of his washing machine diagnosis on this site.

    http://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=34677

    Good luck!
     
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