New Boiler - Combi/Megaflow Costs

[bengasman]

...I don't think you have even bothered to find out what Trustmark is all about. You are just making preconceived generalizations.

I most certainly did. It has all the hallmarks that make warmfront and corgi into a parody about trustworthiness.
Vetting is a boxticking excercise.
The most important box is: have you paid your (non-refundable) monies.
Getting to speak to somebody who is willing and capable of giving you some real answers as opposed to a sales schpiel, is about as likely as achieving the same with the ****ish gas complaints line.
No concrete facts are given over the phone, or by mail, or by email.
The only way to get terms and conditions that I have been able to find so far, is to request an "application pack". No details given as to what info that contains. If you want to take your chances, you have to pay them 60 quid first. Like the roulette wheel, you place your bet, and it is a matter of:
"rien ne va plue, the money has parted from you".

If you have the terms and conditions that apply to tradesmen, I would be very grateful if you could put them up here.

The fact that there is a significant number of competent and reliable resident posters on the forum and none of them ever mention trustmark when it comes to fighting cowboys, should ring a bell.

 

[D_Hailsham]

...I don't think you have even bothered to find out what Trustmark is all about. You are just making preconceived generalizations.

Vetting is a boxticking exercise.

You do not join Trustmark directly but through one of their "Scheme Operators", who carry out all vetting. For plumbers and heating engineers this means a body such as HVCA. If you are already a member of the HVCA, you are automatically in the Trustmark Scheme.

If you don't want to join HVCA you can pay to be included on the Trustmark scheme. But you don't get all the benefits of membership and you clients don't benefit from the free six year warranty on your work.

The most important box is: have you paid your (non-refundable) monies.

I disagree. The most important bit (from HVCA Application Form)is:

"TrustMark status will be conferred only on those firms which can offer independent evidence that they comply with Government-endorsed standards of workmanship.

Inspection and assessment – which are part of the TrustMark registration process – will take place as soon as practicable after the receipt of acompleted form and application fee."

If you have the terms and conditions that apply to tradesmen, I would be very grateful if you could put them up here.

See Trustmark Core Approval Criteria

The fact that there is a significant number of competent and reliable resident posters on the forum and none of them ever mention trustmark when it comes to fighting cowboys, should ring a bell.

The only bell it rings is the one which says that, like you, they haven't bothered to find out what it is all about. Or they have looked into it and realize they could not meet the criteria laid down.

 

[bengasman]

It seems you should re-read my previous posts; I have checked it out.
Trustmark is an auditing process, it is about the paper trail of your company, not the quality of your work.
I did not check out what the requirements are for carpenters and brickies, but for heating work, the fact that you are GSR registered is enough to prove your technical qualities; your work in itself will not be inspected.

Example:
A company, (totally fictional), let's call them Hotfront plc has been installing cheap crap like end of line Ideal Eyesore's for 5 years.
The average sum collected for flinging said eysore on the wall, was not £600, but £3000, which of course is a complete rip off.
If they had most of the work done by contracters who got pittance for doing it, the books would show a healthy profit, which in the eyes of trustmark, would make it a bonafide company.

Provided that they have paid their tax, managed to get the books approved by an accountant during this period, made sure the floor was swept, and the old boiler was disposed of in a legal manner, they would be fully accepted into the trustmark scam.

The only proviso's are that they can show a sufficient number of people to be GSR registered, and trading standards does not have to many upheld complaints.

If you had checked it out, in stead of just reading the propaganda produced by the government, you would have known this.

 

[Deleted member 105431]

I have to agree with bengasman. All these "trustmark" "findatradesman" etc etc type companys do is line their own pockets.

 

[bengasman]

Your link to the criteria pertains to the scheme operators, not to the tradesmen.
Did you not read it yourself, of did you not understand it?

 

[bengasman]

As for the 6 year warrantee, it is not automatic, it is not free, and the company I spoke to who do a lot of trustmark scam insurance, confirmed that it is available for electrical work, but not for heating.

 

[bengasman]

Being on the GSR database, is sufficient independent evidence of good tradesmanship as far as trustmark is concerned.

 

[bengasman]

The rigorous assessment is 100% form filling, not one single mm of solder will be looked at.
The rigorous "inspection" consists of 1 (one) pre-arranged visits and will look at such things as:
is the rubble put in sacks, and not just dumped in the street
is the floor clean enough so as not to risk contamination of food with dust
is the site safe, e.g. did you not leave the floorboards up without a barrier, so people can fall through ceiling
What you are actually doing with the boiler is not part of the inspection

 

[D_Hailsham]

your work in itself will not be inspected.

Wrong.

From the Trustmark website:

1. A firm's technical skills have been independently checked through regular on-site inspections, as well as checks on their trading record and financial status;

3. The approved scheme operator has checked and will continue to monitor the firm's quality of work, trading practices and customer satisfaction;

The only proviso's are that they can show a sufficient number of people to be GSR registered, and trading standards does not have to many upheld complaints.

Where does it say this?

Your link to the criteria pertains to the scheme operators, not to the tradesmen.
Did you not read it yourself, of did you not understand it?

Yes, I did read it and it applies to both scheme operators and tradesmen. To quote again:

"If you want to know more about the standards we expect all approved scheme operators and TrustMark registered firms to meet - see the Core Criteria document."

I have to agree with bengasman. All these "trustmark" "findatradesman" etc etc type companys do is line their own pockets

Trustmark is a not-for-profit organisation.

 

[bengasman]

your work in itself will not be inspected.

Wrong.

Nope, not when it comes to heating which is what we are talking about.

From the Trustmark website:

1. A firm's technical skills have been independently checked through regular on-site inspections,

Builders maybe, but not heating engineers.

3. The approved scheme operator has checked and will continue to monitor the firm's quality of work,

Again, not applicable to heating

The only proviso's are that they can show a sufficient number of people to be GSR registered, and trading standards does not have to many upheld complaints.

Where does it say this?

I actually spoke to the people that do the inspection/assessment for the heatingside.
The different disciplines have different approaches. Those that come under self certification e.g. gas, electricity do not get assessed on the actual work

Your link to the criteria pertains to the scheme operators, not to the tradesmen.
Did you not read it yourself, of did you not understand it?

Yes, I did read it and it applies to both scheme operators and tradesmen. To quote again:

"If you want to know more about the standards we expect all approved scheme operators and TrustMark registered firms to meet - see the Core Criteria document."

Read the actual document.

I have to agree with bengasman. All these "trustmark" "findatradesman" etc etc type companys do is line their own pockets

Trustmark is a not-for-profit organisation.

Neither was corgi.
And the people that do the assessments, who are not part of trustmark itself, are commercial companies.[/b]

 

[D_Hailsham]

Nope, not when it comes to heating which is what we are talking about.

Builders maybe, but not heating engineers.

Again, not applicable to heating

Chapter and verse please

I actually spoke to the people that do the inspection/assessment for the heatingside. The different disciplines have different approaches. Those that come under self certification e.g. gas, electricity do not get assessed on the actual work.

Which organisation(s) did you speak to?

Your link to the criteria pertains to the scheme operators, not to the tradesmen.
Did you not read it yourself, of did you not understand it?

Yes, I did read it and it applies to both scheme operators and tradesmen. To quote again:

"If you want to know more about the standards we expect all approved scheme operators and TrustMark registered firms to meet - see the Core Criteria document."

Read the actual document.

I did; it's not me who is ignoring the bits they don't want to see.

And the people that do the assessments, who are not part of trustmark itself, are commercial companies.

I would have thought that was a good thing. Trustmark is, after all, just an umbrella organisation which lays down the criteria to which the scheme operators have to adhere. Just think how many people Trustmark would have to employ if they had to vet the thousands of companies and self-employed people, from hundreds of different trades, who want to join or are already in the scheme.

I am not suggesting the scheme is perfect - no scheme ever will be; but it's better than Checkatrade and similar schemes.

 

[bengasman]

The great weakness of trustmark is that it is only as good as the weakest link. It doesn't matter how good the vetting is of the best operator, or even the average. What makes it fail completely is one backdoor left open for cowboys to get in.
With some 20 different schemes all having different criteria and different points of focus, it is imminent that mistakes are made.
When political correctness, and subcontracting are present, it tends to change from imminent to a factual situation.
Example?

Trustmark itself: bunch of civics, so bound to be clueless and guaranteed to be pc.
Appoint a council as scheme operator: dito
Council delegates it to trading standards: not known to be the most effective people in the world.
Being the useless fools they are, TS sub it out to a contractor.
Contractor knows how deniabililty works so gets a subcontractor to do the footwork.
As the last 2 in the chain are only interested in making as much profit as possible with as little effort as possible, they are more than happy to use the checks done by GSR as proof of trademanship.
All boxes are ticked:
GSR is independent to trustmark, tick.
They don't have to pay GSR for the vetting, tick
They are recognised as a vetting body, tick.
It means further checks can be avoided, hence more profit, tick.
Fewer people removed from the list, more potential contributions, tick.
If a contribution payer turns out to be a cowboy after all, it is somebody else's fault,TICK!

It is yet another pointless, moneywasting, redtapecreating initiative from new labour that has no real effect, but looks good on paper provided you only read the headlines.
Wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[D_Hailsham]

The great weakness of trustmark is that it is only as good as the weakest link. It doesn't matter how good the vetting is of the best operator, or even the average. What makes it fail completely is one backdoor left open for cowboys to get in.

Agreed

With some 20 different schemes all having different criteria and different points of focus, it is imminent that mistakes are made.
When political correctness, and subcontracting are present, it tends to change from imminent to a factual situation.

I think you mean inherent or implicit? As for different criteria etc , that's to be expected as the trades covered are different.

Trustmark itself: bunch of civics, so bound to be clueless and guaranteed to be pc.
Appoint a council as scheme operator: ditto

That assumes too much about civil servants and public officials. I knew many who were far from clueless and pc. The problem lies with the system under which they have to work. A solicitor explained it to me like this: in the outside world you can do anything you like,as long as it is not illegal. In local and national government you are not allowed to do anything unless the law says you can.

Council delegates it to trading standards: not known to be the most effective people in the world.

Thats the law's fault.

Being the useless fools they are, TS sub it out to a contractor.

It's the law which is the ass. I have never heard of TS contracting out.

PS you have not given the source of your claims about heating.

 

[bengasman]

The chap I spoke to from the company that does the vetting told me about GSR registration being sufficient to eliminate the need for further checks on the actual work quality; can't remember for sure if it was the contractor, or the subcontractor working for the contractor, but I think it was the latter.

 

[Agile]

Click on "agile" name and send him an email, don't know if he covers nw10 but it must be close.

NW10 9EE is our office postcode!

I have not had any contact from the OP and he does not seem to be posting anymore. I think he has been frightened off by all this discussion about Trustmark !

Is D Hailsham a member of Trustmark?

I dont know anybody who is and there have been so many of these schemes, some of which have been withdrawn!

Didn't the Government spend £15M setting one up which was then disbanded as no one joined?

Tony