New Boiler & Vented Heat Bank Location

megawatt said:
I'm with you now WS :LOL:

Yes, the Pandora is just for the HW and the CH will be supplied direct from the boiler.

Best have the boiler direct and the CH off the cylinder either direct or via a coil - the reverse of the Pandora. Buffering is important and if you can have it take it. The Germans are way into buffer tanks. It gives the boiler longevity.

DPS can provide a lower sealed circuit on the Pandora for CH (another plated heat exchanger and pump) but it seems a bit of an overkill (and more £'s) so I may as well let the boiler get on with the CH, got to get some benefit from the Condensing after all :D

So they will fit a plate heat X and pump and on the other side of the plate another pump, when a 20-24kW coil will do the same.

I don't plan on having more than 1 CH zone either so could use Y plan also but everyone keeps telling me S plan is better as it avoids the use of mid-position valves ... Any views on this?

S plan is best, but you can eliminate both.

There's a couple of problems with the GX systems ... They're pressurised so they're not DIY'able (I believe)

The one on the web site is not pressurised. It has an F&E tank.

Pressurised Heat banks (Plate Heat Xs) don't require an unvented ticket, they are DIYable. A pressurised thermal store using a coil needs one - a loophole in the law. NU-Heat supply a pressurised heat bank that is DIYable. It has the plate "inside the cylinder", The boiler is connected direct (a system boiler), so is the heating circuits - all the same body of water. The boiler has relief valve as does the cylinder and that is it, no high temp relief valve. It has a 20 litre pressure vessel for the lot. All DIYable. It runs at lower pressures than an unvented cylinders (set to 1 bar, the atmosphere), and the stored water is not drawn-off.

I would put two relief valves on one of these in case one fails.

and having primary water flowing through the store surely makes them more prone to corrosion etc.

Quite the opposite.

The thing I like about the Pandora is that the store water is totally self-contained ... And filled with a hose through a hole ... By eye :LOL:

So was the Gledhill Systemate and a few others.

If the cylinder is heated via a coil then you need a system boiler, if heated directly and open vented then a heating boiler.

If the store is pressurised then a system boiler or heating boiler with a high limit stat (one that can have an external pressure vessel)
 
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water systems said:
If the cylinder is heated via a coil then you need a system boiler, if heated directly and open vented then a heating boiler.

If the store is pressurised then a system boiler or heating boiler with a high limit stat (one that can have an external pressure vessel)

you dont alf talk some crap salesman :rolleyes:
 
The UK was way behind making cast-iron rubbish - we still are way behind, especially in implemetation stil using cold tanks and cylinders.

and open F&E tanks! There's generally NO justification for NOT installing a sealed , pressurised system EXCEPT plumbing / radiators in such poor condition that they'll fail or leak. Which is not really much of a justification!

If your main reason for selecting a vented heat bank is so as to avoid having to use a properly-qualified installer (!) - your choice.

I also question ANYONE's design that includes a high-temperature (80+ degrees) heat store and a high-efficiency boiler. There are a very few systems (such as ACV) which are carefully designed to create and preserve stratification in the tank, so that the Return water to the boiler canbe kept at low temperature (ie. below 56 degrees). In the absence of such a design, the condensing boiler will NOT condense for much of the time. It is usually argued in response that 'condensing boilers are more efficient anyway'. True, but more efficient than what? And why not maximise efficiency (and comfort) using techniques such as weather compensation while you have the opportunity?
 
kevplumb said:
water systems said:
If the cylinder is heated via a coil then you need a system boiler, if heated directly and open vented then a heating boiler.

If the store is pressurised then a system boiler or heating boiler with a high limit stat (one that can have an external pressure vessel)

you dont alf talk some rubbish salesman :rolleyes:

Monekeyhanger, you a clear inexperienced fool.
 
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Water Systems said:
kevplumb said:
water systems said:
If the cylinder is heated via a coil then you need a system boiler, if heated directly and open vented then a heating boiler.

If the store is pressurised then a system boiler or heating boiler with a high limit stat (one that can have an external pressure vessel)

you dont alf talk some rubbish salesman :rolleyes:

Monekeyhanger, you a clear inexperienced fool.

oh no i ain't salesman
and i trust johns opinion over yours anyday :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
 
croydoncorgi said:
I also question ANYONE's design that includes a high-temperature (80+ degrees) heat store and a high-efficiency boiler.

You have come out with this misinformation a few times and few times it has been explained to you.

Thermal Stores/Heat Banks are far superior than unvented cylinders - and safer. Read below....

Advantages of Thermal Stores/Heat-Banks

- Instant high pressure hot water - When the store has reached temperature water is delivered instantly at the taps.

- High mains water pressures - At up to 10 bar, compared to 3.5 bar maximum with most unvented cylinders.

- Very high water flow-rate - The high-end heat-banks have a flow-rate up to 45 litres/min.

- Long efficient boiler burn - Eliminates boiler on-off cycling increasing efficiency and boiler longevity.

- Maintains a Low Return Temperature Promoting Condensing Effiviency - using high efficient plate heat exchangers the return temperaure is guaranteed to be very low.

- Maintains optimum boiler temperature range – Using a blending valve the flow/return of the boiler can be kept to optimum maintaining greater efficiencies. The boiler operates at optimum performance.

- May combine the output of the stored water and the boiler - The boiler and energy in the store may be combined to increase output. This in effect makes the cylinder larger.

- Cylinder may be smaller for a similar performance - smaller cylinders than unvented cylinders.

- Cylinder at low pressure - Unlike an unvented cylinder vented stores do not store water at high pressures.

- Fast cylinder recovery rate - When the boiler is connected directly to the heat-bank, and not via an indirect coil, the recovery rate is rapid. Although in some cases a boiler may heat the heat-bank via an indirect coil, reducing the recovery rate.

- Legionella bacteria virtually eliminated - The Legionella bacteria cannot survive in the high temperature sealed conditions of a heat-bank.

- No scale build-up in heat-bank – Containing primary and not secondary fresh water, there is no scale build-up inside the heat-bank cylinder.

- Cold water storage eliminated - No need for cold water storage tanks.

- No BBA certification to fit – Unvented cylinders require an approved fitter to install. Thermal stores/heat banks require none and can be DIYed.

- Solar heating storage - Water heated via solar panels may be stored in the heat-bank via a solar coil.

- Easy maintenance - If an external plate heat exchanger requires cleaning or replacing it is a matter of draining down the heat-bank, or closing isolating vales, and unscrewing the plate heat-exchanger. In some rare instances plate heat-exchangers are fitted directly inside the heat-bank preventing on-site maintenance.

- Easy to improve hot water flowrates – By simply adding additional plate heat-exchangers in parallel, hot water flow rates may be improved. Retrofit additions are possible if extra bathrooms or showers are installed. This is impossible with unvented cylinders.

- Stored water vessel need not be cylindrical – As no internal coil is used for hot water heat transfer the stored water vessel may be any shape, as opposed to a thermal store which has to be cylindrical for maximum
efficiency. This has advantages where space is limited.

- No Annual Service Charge – Unvented cylinders require an annual service of between £60-£100. Thermal stores and Heat Banks are service free.

- Thermostatic Radiator Valves can be on all Rads - No wall thermostat required and TRV s on all rads when the CH circuit is take off the store cylinder and an auto modulating speed Grundfos Alpha pump used.

- Cheaper, Smaller, Simpler Boilers May Be Used – The large buffer of stored water means that a boiler sized for average use, not peak use, can be fitted.

- Larger Boilers may Be Used Without Fear of Boiler Cycling – A larger boiler can be used to reduce the cylinder size or give rapid heat recovery rates or both.

- Full Electric Backup of CH and DHW – An immersion Heater(s) can be fitted in the cylinder that will give CH and DHW backup very cheaply.

- Vented Thermal Stores/Heat Bank Eliminate Explosion risk – Unvented cylinders have an explosion risk. This is not a problem with vented thermal stores/heat banks.
http://www.waterheaterblast.com

- Pressurised Thermal Stores Don't Need Annual Service - No BBA unvented certification for fitting or annual service is required if a thermal store is pressurised and uses a plate heat exchanger.

Disadvantages of Thermal Stores Heat-Banks

- The store needs be near fully temperature to supply baths - Before any hot water is drawn off, the store must be up to temperature. Many later versions use a blending valve on the return to the boiler to ensure only up to temperature water is pumped into the store by the boiler. This prevents agitation of the stored water, and aiding heat stratification within the store giving useful water at the top of the store within a short time. The water is heated only in one pass through the boiler.

- Lower water temperatures with fast flow-rates - As with Combi boilers, fast flow-rates through the plate heat-exchanger results in lower water temperatures. This is not so pronounced with heat-banks as with internal coil thermal-stores. This also applies to combi's. With a heat bank, larger or extra plate heat exchangers can be fitted to increase flow rates. Sized up properly this is not an issue in operation.

- Needs more inhibitor - A minor added cost.

Advantages overwhelmingly to thermal stores/heat banks.
 
Regarding:
Pressurised Thermal Stores Don't Need Annual Service - No BBA unvented certification for fitting or annual service is required if a thermal store is pressurised and uses a plate heat exchanger.

Can someone please explain to me the difference between a pressurised thermal store and an unvented cylinder and why certification is required for one and not the other?
 
A thermal store ......, using a plate heat X does not need an unvented ticket

So they can be fitted by the ignorant, without safety features like unvented cylinders have. So with not much wrong, will explode nicely?

Nice of WS to advocate unsafe installations :D
 
Seems to like finding loopholes to get round the law,
advises against using common-sense safety,
chooses systems people will have no end of trouble with,
like to see things go unserviced..... :rolleyes:
 
ChrisR said:
Seems to like finding loopholes to get round the law,
advises against using common-sense safety,
chooses systems people will have no end of trouble with,
like to see things go unserviced..... :rolleyes:

You made all that up.
 
kevplumb said:
If you are competent enough, DIY Gas Work is LEGAL. You DO NOT have to be CORGI registered.

and it is becoming blatantly obvious that you are neither mister :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

How many Monkeys have you hanged this week? You make me larf.
 

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