New Ensuite Issues - Advice Needed

[John Smith Esq.]

Hello,

I had a new ensuite installed in a bedroom approaching two years ago. Just a toilet and sink. I paid a plumber to do the whole job. Toilet and sink wastes go through the outside cavity wall and into the soil pipe serving the adjoining bathroom (old cast iron soil pipe was replaced at the time with slip on plastic one). The house is a bungalow.

The toilet is connected to the waste using a 'question mark' type connector which achieves the right angle needed, and then does another right turn when it leaves the external wall into the waste pipe. Flexi type pipe is used through the wall. (See photos). Basically, the plumber ended up in a tight spot because of the way the toilet goes back to the wall and where the soil pipe is outside.

I reported to the plumber who did the work that the toilet wasn't flushing all that well within days of the job being finished. It clears 99.9% but always has this issue with a back wash of very small bits of ****. Several flushes usually clear it. Sort of. Weirdly, the bits can randomly appear after several days when you flush as though they are trapped around the waste connector. The flush isn't really abnormal but doesn't appear to be all that well designed and maybe the question mark connector reduces the efficiency of flow. There is no problem at all with the outside drains and, as I say, main load is flushed away.

Anyway, there was a back and forth with the plumber on WhatsApp and over the phone that went on for a long time. And I mean like it ended up being 18 months. He basically said his plumbing was fine, the fault was with the toilet, which was my fault because I chose it (even though all materials and labour were supplied by him and I simply chose one of the two he presented to me from his supplier). I disputed this.

Trouble is, it isn't clear whether it is the toilet or something else. Maybe the question mark connector? Maybe the flexi pipe? We could just replace the toilet with like for like (not many options available to fit the space), but since it doesn't appear to be damaged, this could be several hours work to achieve the same outcome and then I'd have an extra toilet I don't need.

After a tediously long time, we agreed that we would cover off all bases: replace the toilet, replace the connector with a proper right angle one, and replace flexi pipe. I agreed to pay for the materials for the sake of getting him to agree to do the replacement. The plan was to use a cabinet type toilet so we could bring the pan more off the back wall, create room for right angle connector and make it to the existing hole through the wall - all without losing too much space in what is a small room.

I sourced the new stuff, measured as required. Went back to him to agree fitting date and only got silence then, despite attempts to call and message. Complete waste of my time. A couple of months later, I changed the two 5 star reviews I'd given at the start to 2 star ones and explained why in my reviews. He suddenly got in contact and was complaining about my reviews... But didn't agree to fix his work, just went back to saying the same things from way back at the beginning. I wonder whether there is something about the job that he knows cannot be fixed?

I have since got a quote from another plumber to do the fix. He would want £250 and I will spent £300 on the new toilet, etc. I have also today noticed that the sink waste seems to be going uphill into the soil pipe outside so looks like that wasn't done properly as well. No doubt stagnant water sitting permanently in the pipe.

Questions:

- would you agree with my proposed way of replacing the toilet and connecting parts as the best means to addressing the toilet problem?

- is it worth making adjustments to the soil pipe, adding a boss maybe, so the sink waste pipe falls properly?

- bearing in mind that I gave ample opportunities to the original plumber to correct his work and must now pay out a further £550, plus whatever is needed to get a proper pipe run to work through the wall (he may have done this all wrong) and sink waste pipe... soil pipe amendments... maybe closer to £850... should I take this to a small claims court to reclaim my costs?

Thoughts welcomed and appreciated.

 

[endecotp]

replace flexi pipe.

Do you mean replace it with a new one, or replace it with something else? It’s not clear to me why the flexi is there at all.

I’d say that the “bits” you are seeing are due to the nature of the flexi.

It’s not a long run and should be possible to do reliably. Maybe it needs a bit more drop - which would probably mean modifying the hole through the wall.

No need to replace the loo IMO.

 

[John Smith Esq.]

Do you mean replace it with a new one, or replace it with something else? It’s not clear to me why the flexi is there at all.

I’d say that the “bits” you are seeing are due to the nature of the flexi.

It’s not a long run and should be possible to do reliably. Maybe it needs a bit more drop - which would probably mean modifying the hole through the wall.

No need to replace the loo IMO.

I was thinking to replace the flexi pipe with solid. The second plumber who has looked at it told me that flexi pipe isn't supposed to be used through a wall. I assume the original plumber used it because he was struggling to make the toilet waste pipe connector line up with where the outside waste pipe is through the thick cavity wall, and it gave him some flexibility? A solid pipe would want to be very straight.

The second plumber reckons that the flexi stuff isn't the issue given where it is, although he could be wrong.

My assumption is that the main culprits are the question mark connector, which makes flush flow less efficient; the flexi pipe which traps bits in the grooves; and possibly the flush design which seems to dump a lot of water from the a big hole at the back of the pan and much less around the smaller jets at the front. As the flush water doesn't move through efficiently enough, trapped bits in the flexi are liberated and then pulled back as some of the flush water falls back into the loo at the end of the flush.

Keeping the toilet will mean keeping the question mark connector owing to the way the toilet goes to the back wall. So this will mean assuming the flexi pipe is the main culprit.

Might be worth mentioning that I recently tried pouring an entire bucket of water (probably 20L) of water into the loo to test if the flush was the problem. The pan was completely clear when I did this. I poured it heavily and then also aimed more towards the front. Weirdly, more bits than ever came back in to the water at the bottom of the pan. This did suggest the toilet flush isn't the problem, as you say. I wondered if there are bits trapped around where the toilet goes into the waste connector. But maybe it is the flexi stuff. Combined with water not flowing through fast enough.

 

[Hugh Jaleak]

The whole soil pipe setup looks a bit like it's been done with what the Plumber had to hand, rather than what was best. The Flexi should never have been used through the wall, it should be rigid 110mm pipe up to the Pan Connector. Secondly, the Boss Pipe governs the height at which the waste can connect, given the socket immediately underneath it. Had a straight section of pipe been used, a Strap Boss could have been fitted slightly lower down, to suit height of waste pipe rather than forcing the waste to fit as it appears to be in the photo.

In a situation where room is at a premium, there is the option to twist the junction 45°, then used a 45° bend within the wall, to gain a little wriggle room and bring the soil pipe in slightly further back. Worst case scenario would be to bring the soil through the wall and make a connection to the existing drain underground, if a suitable connection cannot be made to the soil pipe.

I suspect waste is collecting in the ridges of the flexi pan connector, and this is what is making a reappearance on occasions. Nothing wrong with your pan, it's the soil pipe which is the issue, it's fundamentally wrong and a very poor installation, needs redoing with adequate fall on the pipe.

Be prepared though for this to be a bigger job than you may think, I suspect alterations will need to be made to the external pipework to accommodate the required fall from the pan to the stack.

 

[John Smith Esq.]

I've just noticed this, which probably explains his use of flexi pipe through the wall. The end of the connector is at a slight angle as it approaches the wall...

This might be addressed by turning the toilet slightly so that the right hand side will be a little bit more off the back wall. This would straighten up the connector as it approaches the wall and could then facilitate replacing the flexi with solid through the wall?

Interestingly, if you see the third photo, it looks like he has the toilet off the wall at the left hand side which might add to the problem.

What kind of solid pipe would I use to replace the flexi? Is there some kind of seal it connects to into the soil pipe?

 

[CountryFan]

Try flushing it with a bucket. Flexi shouldn’t be through the wall and is a bodge imo. Should be rigid soil pipe. Bits could be from the flexi.

 

[John Smith Esq.]

Thanks for the replies, it has really helped... this has been doing my head in for a long while and it looks as though the loo can be ruled out.

 

[John Smith Esq.]

The whole soil pipe setup looks a bit like it's been done with what the Plumber had to hand, rather than what was best. The Flexi should never have been used through the wall, it should be rigid 110mm pipe up to the Pan Connector. Secondly, the Boss Pipe governs the height at which the waste can connect, given the socket immediately underneath it. Had a straight section of pipe been used, a Strap Boss could have been fitted slightly lower down, to suit height of waste pipe rather than forcing the waste to fit as it appears to be in the photo.

In a situation where room is at a premium, there is the option to twist the junction 45°, then used a 45° bend within the wall, to gain a little wriggle room and bring the soil pipe in slightly further back. Worst case scenario would be to bring the soil through the wall and make a connection to the existing drain underground, if a suitable connection cannot be made to the soil pipe.

I suspect waste is collecting in the ridges of the flexi pan connector, and this is what is making a reappearance on occasions. Nothing wrong with your pan, it's the soil pipe which is the issue, it's fundamentally wrong and a very poor installation, needs redoing with adequate fall on the pipe.

Be prepared though for this to be a bigger job than you may think, I suspect alterations will need to be made to the external pipework to accommodate the required fall from the pan to the stack.

Hi mate,

Thanks for this. I actually posted before and after your post - does this additional information change anything for you?

By the sounds of it, I'll need to get my builder on the case. Remove the whole soil pipe and connectors outside, remove the loo, remove the flexi pipe. Adjust the core hole as required and then get a solid pipe through the wall with more fall - presumably into a soil pipe connector that is closer to the ground?

It isn't possible to go through the ground - too much concrete and this is connecting into the pre-existing and buried bathroom drain (next door room) through the soil pipe. Only option from the ensuite is to have this bend into the soil pipe on the outside.

Can I just check - would you say the question mark connector is ok? Is the issue between that and the black pipes on the outside (I.e. flexi connector between the two)?

If the question mark is ok and loo is ok, this helps focus where the action is needed. Flexi pipe, wall hole, connection into the drain outside.

Also, what do you think about recovering costs from original plumber?

 

[Hugh Jaleak]

Question Mark Pan Connector should be ok, but it relies on a sensible fall to allow gravity to do it's job and let the waste get away when the WC is flushed. Doesn't need to be much fall, but currently doesn't look like there's any fall on the section through the wall!

The issue may well be the height of the existing socket on the soil pipe where it comes out the ground, it's too low for the junction to go directly into, and the short stub of pipe fitted to raise it is making the junction too high. This is what makes me think some alterations may be needed underground to get the pipework at the right height to go through the wall and put a fall on the soil pipe. (By this I mean externally, so the junction can be sat slightly lower to achieve the slight fall required through the wall. Sorry if I didn't make this clear on my earlier post.)

The alternative of course, is to raise the pan slightly. Either way, the required adjustments and replacing of the soil pipe through the wall should permit the WC to be fitted correctly at right angles to the wall, it should all be fitted with sufficient care to ensure there is no stress on any of the joints.

Trying to recoup costs form the original installer may prove tricky, the onus will be on you to prove they were knowingly negligent, they'll just say they were working within the constraints of the existing pipework.

 

[John Smith Esq.]

Question Mark Pan Connector should be ok, but it relies on a sensible fall to allow gravity to do it's job and let the waste get away when the WC is flushed. Doesn't need to be much fall, but currently doesn't look like there's any fall on the section through the wall!

The issue may well be the height of the existing socket on the soil pipe where it comes out the ground, it's too low for the junction to go directly into, and the short stub of pipe fitted to raise it is making the junction too high. This is what makes me think some alterations may be needed underground to get the pipework at the right height to go through the wall and put a fall on the soil pipe. (By this I mean externally, so the junction can be sat slightly lower to achieve the slight fall required through the wall. Sorry if I didn't make this clear on my earlier post.)

The alternative of course, is to raise the pan slightly. Either way, the required adjustments and replacing of the soil pipe through the wall should permit the WC to be fitted correctly at right angles to the wall, it should all be fitted with sufficient care to ensure there is no stress on any of the joints.

Trying to recoup costs form the original installer may prove tricky, the onus will be on you to prove they were knowingly negligent, they'll just say they were working within the constraints of the existing pipework.

Thanks for this, all makes sense.

I did question the fall from the very start but he kept saying that he has done it to the standard height through the wall and has been adamant that this isn't the problem. There is a fall between the back of the toilet and where the waste pipe enters the wall, but as you say, seems to go fairly flat from then through the thickness of the wall (might even be very slightly uphill and who knows how the flexi is positioned all the way through?). The levels sort of work in that 99.9% gets flushed. It's these small bits coming back that is the problem. So probably a case of the levels not being ideal AND the flexi stuff, where water falling back to the pan at the end of a flush can bring back bits trapped in grooves.

So I need to improve the fall at any rate and use solid pipe.

In terms of the socket outside, I don't know if you can tell, but there seems to be a couple of inches where you still see the old cast iron vent pipe at the bottom. So perhaps the socket can be pushed down towards the ground in combination with the hole through the wall being adjusted to get more of a slope and lining up better with the pan connector inside for a solid pipe to be used?

The ensuite didn't exist before this job so the only pipe he had to work with was the old cast iron vent pipe outside to the adjoining bathroom. He created the hole through the wall, cut off the old iron pipe, put the new plastic one on with sockets.

In terms of the flexi - I know McAlpine sell their products as being able to deal with different awkward situations and angles. The plumber will say he has used branded products as intended. Are you saying the fkexi stuff is flawed (crap goes in grooves), or does it just need a really good fall to work well? And when we say flexi shouldn't be in the wall, is this a regulation or design thing?

If I go with raising the toilet, which will probably still need the hole in the wall adjusting to accommodate changed angles and a solid pipe, how would you recommend doing this in a way that doesn't look bodgy and unsightly?

What I am thinking is:

- remove black sockets and vent pipe outside, rearrange somehow so that the black waste pipe into the wall ends up lower. Even an inch lower (or more?) and there appears scope to do this (visibile on photos). Then adjust this connector so it contacts the wall at more of an angle.

- adjust the hole through the wall so it is more sloped downwards from inside to outside, to correspond with the lower and now angled black connector outside.

- run solid pipe through the wall, running downwards, and in a position laterally that is required (hole also adjusted for this).

- question mark connector then connected to this solid pipe inside. Either at same height as existing at internal wall or slightly lower if possible.

 

[drives]

If it were me I'd definitely explore the cabinet idea that you mentioned in your first post with back to wall pan...assuming you have sufficient room in front. Then hopefully a simple right angle fitting would more or less take it directly out through the hole. For one of my bathrooms I used slimline cabinetry and then built out from the back wall with a small false wall, to fix the cabinets to and bring it further forward to exactly where I wanted it. I used a regular depth counter top and just cut this to the right size.

This would also provide the advantage of hiding the pipework as well. Would a hidden cistern give a bit more useable height as well to adjust the appropriate fall for the sink waste? Potentially...but appreciate there are other issues in terms of the height of where the hole through the wall is, and the soil stack branch. That could be easily fixed though. Very annoying regarding the initial installer though- feel your pain.

 

[John Smith Esq.]

If it were me I'd definitely explore the cabinet idea that you mentioned in your first post with back to wall pan...assuming you have sufficient room in front. Then hopefully a simple right angle fitting would more or less take it directly out through the hole. For one of my bathrooms I used slimline cabinetry and then built out from the back wall with a small false wall, to fix the cabinets to and bring it further forward to exactly where I wanted it. I used a regular depth counter top and just cut this to the right size.

This would also provide the advantage of hiding the pipework as well. Would a hidden cistern give a bit more useable height as well to adjust the appropriate fall for the sink waste? Potentially...but appreciate there are other issues in terms of the height of where the hole through the wall is, and the soil stack branch. That could be easily fixed though. Very annoying regarding the initial installer though- feel your pain.

Thanks for this. Yes, there is a temptation just to go back to that original plan. I think there is sufficient depth in the room, just, to basically lose the question mark, come further forward off the wall, and get a proper right angle. Then go through the wall in more of a straight line using a solid pipe. This *might* mean not having to adjust the hole or soil pipe outside, if levels are sufficient (they might be given the flush flow will become much more efficient). Also, very true about hiding the pipes and making it all neater!

The other thing is that taking the existing toilet apart could end up meaning little leaks at disturbed seals when it gets put back together, and that will need to be removed either way. So just going with the new loo means covering that issue off as well.

Re original fitter. If it all ends up costing £800 to fix, I'll tell him to give me £400 by a given deadline and that failure to do so will mean I commence a claim for the full amount, plus sundry costs, and won't stop once it starts. Luckily, the builder doing my extension is a sound bloke and all rounder so will get him involved in the fix.

He is good at radiators, boilers and that sort of thing as far as I can tell but obviously has been caught out with this job which involved some building aspects. He actually responded to my google review accusing me of being OCD because the flush is 99.9% fine. Seriously, who wants to pay thousands for a new WC closet where the basic function of the toilet doesn't work properly and little bits of **** come back to the pan? If he had done a cheapo job for me I wouldn't mind so much, but he seemed to be quite greedy. Showed up with some old toilet he'd obviously got off another job before I rejected that. Charged me £250 for the electrics (a light and switch) and I overheard the electrician telling him that'll be £75. When I queried why he had charged me so much for that part he was like "well I organised it so I get a mark up on that, you wouldn't have got anybody that cheap." BS! All fine if he'd done a great job but sadly not so on the really crucial plumbing aspects. If he had at least come and sorted it, all would be forgiven, but he failed to do the right thing.

What really beggars belief is that I actually paid to get a building notice approval through the council building control (because of drain connection and wall insulation) as I wanted to do things properly, but they obviously didn't take a blind bit of notice about the details of the waste pipe connection. So they are a scam as well.

What I have learnt is to never EVER trust the reviews online, whether Google, checkatrade, etc. Don't take recommendations from women, they only notice the surface details. Don't trust the council to notice details, they are just having a quick glance so the boxes can be ticked. Basically, assume all tradesmen are lazy, incompetent, careless, rushing ****s and work from there. There are exceptions out there but increasingly few and far between it seems.

 

[drives]

Thanks for this. Yes, there is a temptation just to go back to that original plan. I think there is sufficient depth in the room, just, to basically lose the question mark, come further forward off the wall, and get a proper right angle. Then go through the wall in more of a straight line using a solid pipe. This *might* mean not having to adjust the hole or soil pipe outside, if levels are sufficient (they might be given the flush flow will become much more efficient). Also, very true about hiding the pipes and making it all neater!

The other thing is that taking the existing toilet apart could end up meaning little leaks at disturbed seals when it gets put back together, and that will need to be removed either way. So just going with the new loo means covering that issue off as well.

Re original fitter. If it all ends up costing £800 to fix, I'll tell him to give me £400 by a given deadline and that failure to do so will mean I commence a claim for the full amount, plus sundry costs, and won't stop once it starts. Luckily, the builder doing my extension is a sound bloke and all rounder so will get him involved in the fix.

He is good at radiators, boilers and that sort of thing as far as I can tell but obviously has been caught out with this job which involved some building aspects. He actually responded to my google review accusing me of being OCD because the flush is 99.9% fine. Seriously, who wants to pay thousands for a new WC closet where the basic function of the toilet doesn't work properly and little bits of **** come back to the pan? If he had done a cheapo job for me I wouldn't mind so much, but he seemed to be quite greedy. Showed up with some old toilet he'd obviously got off another job before I rejected that. Charged me £250 for the electrics (a light and switch) and I overheard the electrician telling him that'll be £75. When I queried why he had charged me so much for that part he was like "well I organised it so I get a mark up on that, you wouldn't have got anybody that cheap." BS! All fine if he'd done a great job but sadly not so on the really crucial plumbing aspects. If he had at least come and sorted it, all would be forgiven, but he failed to do the right thing.

What really beggars belief is that I actually paid to get a building notice approval through the council building control (because of drain connection and wall insulation) as I wanted to do things properly, but they obviously didn't take a blind bit of notice about the details of the waste pipe connection. So they are a scam as well.

What I have learnt is to never EVER trust the reviews online, whether Google, checkatrade, etc. Don't take recommendations from women, they only notice the surface details. Don't trust the council to notice details, they are just having a quick glance so the boxes can be ticked. Basically, assume all tradesmen are lazy, incompetent, careless, rushing ****s and work from there. There are exceptions out there but increasingly few and far between it seems.

Sounds about right. You either need to micromanage and check everything where most trades are concerned (and ideally have a payment plan that protects your interests i.e. a decent final payment, only payable when everything is thoroughly checked and working as it should), or do it yourself. I've chosen the latter option for everything feasibly possible (hence on this forum often asking a lot of questions ), as overall I find it less stressful. Bathrooms/toilets are quite intricate jobs which take time and effort to get right.

Incidentally I've used a macalpine flexi on one of our toilets, with no issue. Whilst unpleasant you could presumably dismantle some of the sections to see where the standing water is i.e. where the fall isn't right? It is probably that section running through the cavity as mentioned above.

 

[Nige F]

well.

What I have learnt is to never EVER trust the reviews online, whether Google, checkatrade, etc. Don't take recommendations from women, they only notice the surface details. Don't trust the council to notice details, they are just having a quick glance so the boxes can be ticked. Basically, assume all tradesmen are lazy, incompetent, careless, rushing ****s and work from there. There are exceptions out there but increasingly few and far between it seems.

Indeed , we're all retired now - and didn't make a fortune -like people thought.

 

[John Smith Esq.]

Sounds about right. You either need to micromanage and check everything where most trades are concerned (and ideally have a payment plan that protects your interests i.e. a decent final payment, only payable when everything is thoroughly checked and working as it should), or do it yourself. I've chosen the latter option for everything feasibly possible (hence on this forum often asking a lot of questions ), as overall I find it less stressful.

100%

I go with the micromanagement option to the max, but will start doing more myself in future. I absolutely dread to think how it will be in 10 or 20 years when all the old timers are gone.