New Flat, Garage supply.

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I recently helped a friend move into a flat in Aberdeen. One of the things we noticed was that the existing electrical supply is going to need some updating and we've been discussing the requirements for the upgrades. I'd like some pointers on what we've come up with.

The existing installation, has the service fuse and meter in a downstairs external cupboard, with SWA running from the meter to an old rewireable fuseboard which services the flat. There is also a piece of 2.5mm SWA also attached to the meter, running out to the garage, and there is an old metal clad rewireable fusebox in the garage running the lights and sockets.

The eventual plan would be to have everything upgraded with new RCD protected boards and remove the dodgyness of the existing install.

Clearly this 2.5mm SWA is somewhat dodgy, being only protected by the service fuse, so we want to get that sorted and install a new garage CU with RCD protection, and also provide the facility to run another submain out to a workshop/shed in the back garden as an initial step. The consumer unit in the flat will also be upgraded at some point, although this is less critical than sorting out the submains.

I've suggested he has an isolation switch installed immediately after the meter, then take the tails into a pair of henley blocks. He can then have the SWA to the House CU coming from the blocks, and take another pair of tails to a switchfuse to service the garage, with a suitable fuse fitted to cover the 2.5mm SWA. The metal clad box in the garage can then be replaced with a decent garage CU with RCD.

Does this sound sensible?

As for the second submain out to the new shed/workshop, i've suggested that he takes a new SWA from a second way in the switchfuse at the meter cupboard, and runs that out to the shed, however hes thinking it might be easier logistically to take the shed feed from the garage board. I'm not sure i like this too much, as that 2.5mm SWA is probably going to end up fused at 20A if its PVC insulated, and it seems like a bad idea trying to run two ring mains and two lighting circuits from a 20A fuse, not least for discrimination reasons. Hes likely to blow the fuse in the meter cupboard before any of the individual breakers trip.
 
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Ofcourse it does.


As an additional point, is there any reason why a DP MCB cant be used in place of a switchfuse?
 
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Ok, but as an example, the garage power supply in my own house, which was installed last year, has a 40A MCB in the main house consumer unit, 10mm SWA to a small panel in the garage with 32A and 6a breakers for the relevant circuits.

Instead of using up a way in the CU (and also stopping the garage feed ending up covered by two RCD's) one could presumably use a henley block feeding a 40A DP MCB in a small enclosure then off out to the garage directly, bypassing the CU all together, yet achieving exactly the same thing in terms of discrimination as currently exists?
Surely if anything its better, as an earth fault in the garage wouldnt then take out the House RCD's?


In my friends case it wouldnt be going anywhere near the Main CU anyway, but i just cant see why it would be any different to the way my house is currently wired, to use an MCB off the meter rather than a switchfuse?
 
Ok, but as an example, the garage power supply in my own house, which was installed last year, has a 40A MCB in the main house consumer unit, 10mm SWA to a small panel in the garage with 32A and 6a breakers for the relevant circuits.
Installed last year by a buffoon.


Instead of using up a way in the CU (and also stopping the garage feed ending up covered by two RCD's) one could presumably use a henley block feeding a 40A DP MCB in a small enclosure then off out to the garage directly, bypassing the CU all together, yet achieving exactly the same thing in terms of discrimination as currently exists?
i.e. inadequate discrimination.


Surely if anything its better, as an earth fault in the garage wouldnt then take out the House RCD's?
Not having it on the house CU is better, but...


In my friends case it wouldnt be going anywhere near the Main CU anyway, but i just cant see why it would be any different to the way my house is currently wired, to use an MCB off the meter rather than a switchfuse?
... why are you so against the use of a switchfuse?
 
ban:

I'll fully agree with you about it being installed by a buffoon. He replaced the CU at the same time, and when testing during the swap the downstairs ring failed the IR test, to which the guy basically said "Ah, it'll be fine, the RCD is staying in so it cant be that bad"

A few months later when replacing a few socket faceplates i discovered one socket in the livingroom only had a single 1.5mm T&E connected to it. Further investigation uncovered a chock block nailed to a timber beam under the floor, with the legs of the ring wedged into to it along with the 1.5mm going to said socket. Bare copper everywhere and a total mess.

Anyway thats a whole other story!


I still cant see why theres a lack of discrimination using a 40A MCB instead of a switchfuse?


As for why i'd prefer to use one, for one, switch fuse enclosures tend to be large chunky things, and space is at somewhat of a premium in the meter cupboard, especially if we end up using one for each submain. A small enclosure and a DP MCB i'd imagine would be a fair amount more compact, espeically with two submains as we could simply choose a slightly larger din enclosure and fit both inside? Also, should he trip it out, its much easier to click it back on than to have to replace the fuse. Otherwise, it was more a question of can an MCB be used, and if not, why not?
 
I still cant see why theres a lack of discrimination using a 40A MCB instead of a switchfuse?
There's obviously little chance of any discrimination between a 32A MCB and a 40A MCB. With a 60A fuse (just about OK for 10mm SWA), you'd stand a reasonable chance of discrimination from a 32A MCB - because of both 60A vs. 32A and fuse vs. MCB.

Kind Regards, John.
 
I still cant see why theres a lack of discrimination using a 40A MCB instead of a switchfuse?
Between a 32A and a 40A? There isn't.


As for why i'd prefer to use one, for one, switch fuse enclosures tend to be large chunky things
The MEM 800KMF is about the same size as a double socket.


Also, should he trip it out, its much easier to click it back on than to have to replace the fuse.
What on earth is going to make it trip apart from damage to the cable?
 
Fair enough, but if your suggesting a 60A fuse then why not compare it with 60A MCB? Wouldnt using a Type C for instance provide sufficient difference to ensure the B32 on the ring tripped before the C60 given a short?


For my friends place, the 2.5mm SWA will probably be limited to around 25A maximum which poses a bigger issue? Discrimination with a ring main is effectively impossible, given it will presumably require a 20A switchfuse.
 
You'd find it almost impossible to ever meet the max. permitted Zs value for a C63 circuit breaker in a domestic installation.
 
Because thats whats on the other end of the SWA in the garage, along with a lighting circuit?


That MEM 800KMF looks pretty good. However getting a small enough fuse to protect the 2.5mm Cable may prove an issue?


I've suggested he upgrade the SWA, but unfortunately it goes under the ground floor flats garage so that would be particularly challenging. Hes going to look at options for getting a new cable run clipped to the external wall, but failing that what other options are there?
 
For my friends place, the 2.5mm SWA will probably be limited to around 25A maximum which poses a bigger issue? Discrimination with a ring main is effectively impossible, given it will presumably require a 20A switchfuse.
If the load could be kept down to about 20A, one way to get around that discrimination problem would be not to have any MCBs in the garage - just a 20A MCB (if you can find one), and an RCD, at the house end, feeding directly to the garage sockets, with an FCU (probably 3A fuse) off that for the garage lights.

Kind Regards, John.
 

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