New Flooring upstairs and down.

[Pat ex]

This is more of a 'What do you think' type query, but I've been giving it some serious consideration, for both the upstairs floor, and the downstairs floor.
Each is about 120m², so about 240 M² in total. But I don't need to be committed to doing both. I could do one or other. I don't have a timeframe, so I'm not committed to any finish date. Even after starting there's still loads of other stuff to do. So it could be a start and stop, as required, type of mission.

First off, I can get green oak offcuts for less than £50 per m³. These off cuts are from a saw mill, and are the rounded off bits of the trees after being squared off. So they come in various lengths, widths and thicknesses. Some are already square edged, or just one edge, or both waney edge. But about every third piece, I could get a useful piece of timber out of it. I normally use it in the wood burner, after seasoning, so any 'waste' won't go to waste. I could lay it, and leave it loose for a year, before fixing it, without any problems.

I have the tools, I have a decent cast iron table saw, router table, hand held router, planer/thicknesser, plus other stuff.

Currently the upstairs joists run across the long length of the building, about 40mm apart, so the floorboards would run across the narrow width. I could easily lay a chipboard floor under the oak flooring, to increase my options.

For upstairs, I was thinking of random lengths of floor boarding. I would probably settle on a predetermined width, but i could easily have several predetermined widths.
I could have square edged or router a tongue and groove in the edges. I could do that on the router table, or set up a decent piece of timber to clamp the boards to, and use the hand held router, with the spacer guide..

For the downstairs, it will be a recently laid concrete floor, with WUH. I was thinking of a parquet type floor, in a herringbone pattern.

What do people think about the time and effort involved?
Sure, I could buy ready to use boards, sawn pine boards, tiles, etc.
But I'm thinking about cost and effort versus eventual finish of the floor(s).
Edit: I meant less than £50 per M³, not per M². I've corrected it now.

 

[crazydaze]

Big project but a unique and rewarding finish no doubt.

Firstly make sure any underboarding is ply and not chipboard.

Secondlt, seasoning/humidity, this will make or break the project.

I think with the herringbone you would be best off buying a pre-prepared product, perhaps in a unfinished surface so you can use the same oil/stains as you do upstairs.

LOT's to read up upon if laying herringbone over UFH.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

T&G is a royal PIA to do in bulk with a router - not to mention damned hard work (partly because supporting a long piece of timber as it runs across a small router table is not at all easy and easily fails). T&G is best made on a 4-sided moulder, or failing that a spindle moulder with a power feeder. Easier is to groove square edge boards on both sides with a hand held router (NOT a router table) and a grooving cutter (with a follow bearing) and rip some 6mm or 1/4in plywood to install as loose tongues, which can be glued in place if needed

 

[Pat ex]

Thanks for that crazydaze.
Yes, I appreciate that seasoning is probably the most important issue. That's why I could lay it loose for about a year before fixing it.
On the widths, my table saw can cut something like 75mm, so I could go to 150mm wide boards (cutting once, then flipping it over to cut right through), finishing it off in the planer thicknesser wouldn't be a problem. Suppose I was working at 100mm wide boards, I'm assuming that the shrinkage across the width of say 50 boards at 100mm wide each, is the same as shrinkage across 25 boards at 200mm wide each?

On the Herringbone, I have cut about 25 pieces and laid them loose, in a three by three arrangement and they looked good. I think they were something like 225mm long by 75mm wide.

 

[Pat ex]

Thanks J&K, good tip.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

How are you thinking of fixing down the timber? Something like a Porta Nails tool?

 

[Pat ex]

How are you thinking of fixing down the timber? Something like a Porta Nails tool?

Not sure yet.
For upstairs, I do have an air powered framing nailer (50mm - 90mm) and an air powered finishing nailer, (both Bostitch I think), but they don't like oak one bit, well not at 90mm ring nails! The nails for the finishing nailer are a bit too thin really.
In the past I've used floor brads, hammered in and counter sunk prior to sanding. The Porta Nails tools aren't cheap.
So I'm open to advice.

On the ground floor, again I'm open to advice, whether to glue them all, glue some of them, or just the edges. Then there's the treatment of the concrete prior to placing the flooring. I don't fancy grooving all the blocks if I go down the parquet route.

 

[Pat ex]

Firstly make sure any underboarding is ply and not chipboard.

Why do you recommend ply instead of chipboard? If I was using chipboard, it would be the typical flooring panels with the T&G edges.
If I went down the ply route, would you think 12mm would suffice? I would normally use 18mm for flooring, but as a sub floor under oak boards, I'm thinking 12mm would be OK.

What thickness do you recommend for the oak boards/parquet blocks/ I was thinking maybe 20mm.

 

[crazydaze]

Chipboard is'nt strong/stable enough to fix the wood to, Ply is.

As for depths etc I could'nt advise, sorry.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

For upstairs, I do have an air powered framing nailer (50mm - 90mm) and an air powered finishing nailer, (both Bostitch I think), but they don't like oak one bit, well not at 90mm ring nails! The nails for the finishing nailer are a bit too thin really.
In the past I've used floor brads, hammered in and counter sunk prior to sanding. The Porta Nails tools aren't cheap.
So I'm open to advice.

In the UK I'd simply hire a Porta Nails (or similar) flooring nailer. They are perfectly capable of fixing 25mm solid T&G oak in place and give you that secret nailed look. Are you really in a place without hire services?

On the ground floor, again I'm open to advice, whether to glue them all, glue some of them, or just the edges. Then there's the treatment of the concrete prior to placing the flooring. I don't fancy grooving all the blocks if I go down the parquet route.

Traditional parquet isn't grooved - that seems to have come in around WWI period. Prior to that the blocks were just bedded onto hot bitumen

It is highly advisable to do a moisture content check on your concrete sub-floor, really with a proper concrete meter like a Tramex - meters made for wood can give wildly inaccurate readings and tend to measure oy surface MC when it's a core reading you need. If it gives a reading above 4% it will need to be sealed somehow (I've successfully used a Mapei epoxy resin sealer in the past on solid T&G oak). Even if it reads dry I'd still put down a coat of liquid DPM

I would normally use 18mm for flooring, but as a sub floor under oak boards, I'm thinking 12mm would be OK.

What thickness do you recommend for the oak boards/parquet blocks/ I was thinking maybe 20mm.

As @crazydaze says, plywood is far better than chipboard for nail holding. With a Porta Nailer I'd aim to put down at least 18mm with 1in/25mm thick flooring. Less y
Than thst and there us insufficient "meat" for the nails to fix to

One thing which hasn't been considered is the moisture content (MC) of your oak. The MC needs to be fairly consistent with all boards in a fairly narrow 1 to 2% band. If the house is being centrally heated you really need to get the oak dried down to something like 8 to 10% MC - if above 10% you'll risk major gaps opening up. If it's the other way round and your oak is, say, 6% MC then you potentially need to give it expansion room. That means popping a couple of penny washers between the boards every couple of feet every 3rd or 4th row you install (and taking one row of washers out every 15 to 20 rows, and all of them out at the end of day). Forget to take the washers out and the oak can swell and lock them in- to the extent that the following day they can be almost immovable (I've seen that)

 

[Pat ex]

Are you really in a place without hire services?

It isn't that that is the consideration. I suspect this kind of job will be spread over many months, interspersed with other jobs.
It wouldn't be practical to hire it for a few days at a time over many months.

Traditional parquet isn't grooved - that seems to have come in around WWI period. Prior to that the blocks were just bedded onto hot bitumen

It is highly advisable to do a moisture content check on your concrete sub-floor, really with a proper concrete meter like a Tramex - meters made for wood can give wildly inaccurate readings and tend to measure oy surface MC when it's a core reading you need. If it gives a reading above 4% it will need to be sealed somehow (I've successfully used a Mapei epoxy resin sealer in the past on solid T&G oak). Even if it reads dry I'd still put down a coat of liquid DPM

I'm being 'told' by my other half, that a tiled floor downstairs will be preferable. So the parquet floor downstairs might be out of the question.

One thing which hasn't been considered is the moisture content (MC) of your oak. The MC needs to be fairly consistent with all boards in a fairly narrow 1 to 2% band. If the house is being centrally heated you really need to get the oak dried down to something like 8 to 10% MC - if above 10% you'll risk major gaps opening up. If it's the other way round and your oak is, say, 6% MC then you potentially need to give it expansion room. That means popping a couple of penny washers between the boards every couple of feet every 3rd or 4th row you install (and taking one row of washers out every 15 to 20 rows, and all of them out at the end of day). Forget to take the washers out and the oak can swell and lock them in- to the extent that the following day they can be almost immovable (I've seen that)

That would create a novel floor.
The green oak is about 21%.
The oak for burning kept in the open sided, unheated barn dries to about 12% to 15%..
I would lay the boards loose for about 12 months before fixing in place.