New rimless toilet weakest flush ever

[kanzac]

I've just had a new bathroom installed. All great bar the toilet flush. It's very weak and doesn't even get rid of toilet paper - takes x3 flushes and for any No2 needs a bucket of water pouring down. Links to items below:

Flush video
Rimless comfort height Toilet
concealed cistern

Fitter came back and said the cistern and toilet are not compatible as they are eco items and always have a poor flush. As we purchased the items he fitted them anyway and never said they weren't compatible - so will have to pay him extra to have them changed. This seems ridiculous!

I cant see any reason why the toilet and cistern aren't compatible - but think he's trying to pull a fast one as he doesn't want to repair it - without us paying extra.

Any thoughts as I feel i'm being done over?

 

[Madrab]

He needs to explain why he thinks it isn't compatible - Looking at both cisterns they both look like they are the same 4-6L standard capacity and are plastic concealed cisterns. Their shape is slightly different but seems to be about it unless their flush valves are so different that the flush rate is less on yours, i.e. it take longer to flush 6L than the other one would, which is a bit of a stretch TBH.

Have you contact the pan supplier and is there any reason you didn't buy theirs that was only like £4 extra?

 

[kanzac]

Thanks @ Madrab.
I got all the stuff from Vic Plumbing but the toilet was then not available in time for fitters arrival, so I got the pan from Heat & Plumb, but the cistern was retained from Vic Plumbing.

I've discovered x2 trains of thought:

1. Incorrect fitting: Cistern not high enough, valves not adjusted correctly for optimum flush, cistern fill height not enough, water entry pipe to pan pushed too far in causing slight blockage.
2. Rimless toilets with the allowable 6Lt flush is not enough to do the job. Add that it's a comfort height toilet which makes it worse.

Sadly this is my elderly parents bathroom and I am disgusted that the fitter was happy to walk away with such a poor flushing toilet and saying it was not his responsibility as we provided the products. This was only because he insisted we get everything and he would do labour. I told my dad to hold some of the payment back - but he paid the full £4k at once.

Surely if the toilet is not functioning as a toilet should - the fitter - as the expert - should be responsible or should have advised before fitting that it would not work?

 

[Madrab]

Surely if the toilet is not functioning as a toilet should - the fitter - as the expert - should be responsible or should have advised before fitting that it would not work?

Difficult one - it all really comes down to whether it had all been installed as per MI, if so then it's difficult to blame the installer as he's done what was required. With so many different permutations and different makes and designs these days, even I'd find it difficult to say 'that won't work' before it's all fitted, unless there was something glaringly wrong.

That being said, as a trade professional, I certainly wouldn't be happy with that and would happily go that 'extra mile' to help with getting to the bottom of it and trying to find a solution, especially if the clients were elderly. It really is just good old basic customer service and bit of professional integrity - and you can quote me on that. It would drive me nuts if something like that happened. Even if it all came down to the point where everything had been tried and it all ruled out so the only thing left would be to say - it has to be the design of the pan. I have had to do that in the past.

Cistern not high enough is a fair point given how high the comfort height pan may be, especially if the cistern is contained within a standard vanity type unit and it can only be raised so high. Flush valve should be set to empty the cistern as standard, that's a basic installation check, along with fitting the flush pipe properly into the cone with no rise to the pan.

Rimless toilets are quite a new breed and they are coming with mixed experiences when it comes to flushing TBTH.

 

[kanzac]

Thanks again. I've spoken to the plumber again. He said the poor flush is because it's a rimless, and they are known for not clearing the pan.

He said he can replace the toilet with a normal one for a day rate and it would (theoretically) resolve the problem.

I'm still not convinced.

 

[Rodders53]

We have a rimless pan. It clears.

We have used rimless pans in Hotels (and even public toilets!). They cleared.

I can't find any installation instructions for that pan on the interweb.

Rimless pans often have 'restrictors' in the flush pipe to pan to limit the flush flow rate as there is a potential for the water to splash over the rim. May be worth a check if one has been fitted/left in place without adjustment?
Mine was a rubber/plastic ring with notches that could be removed to increases it. IIRC I removed it entirely in the end.

There are other variations on the theme. Some makes incorporate flow rate control in the cisterns.

The other thing that can restrict out flow would be the waste pipework and interface? Was it fixed of flexi pipe? That is basic plumbing though for a professional.

 

[kanzac]

Yes, it would seem odd that so many rimless are for sale - if they don't work. It maybe that the pan is defective - I have contacted the company. I will do the same for the cistern to see if there are any "adjustable" factors.

Thanks so much for your input - it's been very helpful.

 

[kanzac]

One more thing, the plumber said there was absolutely nothing to adjust or set up on cistern or toilet - he said it all all comes set up by manufacturer - with no adjustment - so all he did was install what we gave him.

YET - the instructions on the cistern - say "Step 7 - Set the cistern water level using the adjusting screw".

Is he just trying to avoid his cost of ripping it all out now?

 

[Madrab]

One more thing, the plumber said there was absolutely nothing to adjust or set up on cistern or toilet - he said it all all comes set up by manufacturer - with no adjustment - so all he did was install what we gave him.

B0llocks - all these generic plastic concealed cisterns usually come with adjustable dual flush drop valves and adjustable flush valves. When I fit them, I always check they are at max and test flush several times, a lot come pre set absolutely spot on but it wouldn't be the first time I've had to adjust the fill level and the valve to make it complete a full - empty the cistern - flush.

He's not much of a plumber if he doesn't check that as a standard and then could say to you " yup, I always check it fills to the 6L mark and then do a few test flushes with toilet roll and adjust where necessary, I tested yours and it didn't need adjusted as it filled and flushed correctly"

Unfortunately it sounds like you employed 'Throwitin, Cash and Scarper LTD' who has very little customer after care.

Unfortunately though, that isn't a crime and he hasn't really done anything wrong, or at least nothing that is liable. It wouldn't then be for him to cover the labour to replace something he didn't supply, as he did fit what was provided. In those cases I always point out to the client that I am only liable for any issues created as part of the installation or anything I supply, the hardware is down to the client.

 

[kanzac]

Ok, I've cut out the shelf to access the concealed cistern and had a look:
1. The cistern is filling completely - so a low water level is dismissed.
2. The cistern is installed 6-8" above the pan - so I guess there is enough height - so that can be dismissed.

I have filmed the flush operating and there seems to be a lot of gurgling and bubbles going on - not sure what that means. Could someone in the know confirm if the bubbling and water coming back up the overflow pipe is a sign that something is not right with the flush? See link:

Cistern Flush Video

 

[BlueLoo]

Crazy idea:
Have you downloaded all the IOM 's and read them?

You might find the answers within.

 

[kanzac]

Thanks.
I cannot find them online, fitter threw away all instructions from box. I have contacted the manufacturer and am awaiting a response.

 

[kanzac]

Blue Loo - sadly I relied on a professional plumber from a recommended website. I did not expect a professional to walk away from a bathroom install leaving a toilet that doesn't flush away waste saying, "Rimless toilets never flush properly", "These are eco, so you will always have to press the button several times", "the cisterna and pan are incompatible", "I only installed what you supplied, there are no adjustments on pan or cistern, they are set by manufacturer". And he threw away all documentation for pan, cistern, shower, heated towel rail, etc.

I'm here to get help!

 

[BlueLoo]

 

[Madrab]

OK - looking at that the cistern it has been raised as high as any would normally go, flush pipes don't really come longer than that one and cisterns wouldn't be any higher, that and it's the larger 2" > 1.5" europipe, so the drop and flow is maximised. If the cistern is full and it empties as fast as possible then the drop valve is also working properly. Don't have access via the link.

All that's left is the actual pan design, as suggested I have had mixed results with rimless as they are quite new, as far as domestic pans are concerned.

Some of his statements are just plain wrong and him swerving the issue but, and it is a big but, he has installed what he was supplied with, correctly by the looks of it and there's not a lot that he can do about bad pan design. Instructions wouldn't help here, there is nothing that the MI would tell you that would help with the actual flush and flow of the water, cistern heights, sizes of flush valves etc, the manufacturers just don't supply that type of info in toilet pan MI's that I've ever seen, very little is included in the docs for pans.