New Zealand

[mitch66]

Is it fair that some athletes have superb training facilities and others don't?
Is it fair that some athletes have access to fantastic equipment and others don't?
Is it fair that some have access to the best diet, etc, and others don't?
Is it fair that some athletes and their families are pressurised into training and others aren't?
It's not the level playing field that it's made out to be. ('scuse the pun)

You can find an argument so easily, even when there isn't one.

 

[mitch66]

Dupl

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

No.

It looks like a similar massive change to me. There might be no going back. I haven't checked, but I'd assume there is no going back.

But the women are.

As are the transgender athlete, to go that far for a medal.

No, it isn't.

It is to me, except that the leg injury may be a complete recovery injury.

How, if he is ten stone heavier than the next woman in the maximum over the 192lb class?

That doesn't mean much to me.
But I thought that the weight lifted is relative and only that weight that exceeds the athlete's own weight is counted, rather than 'the raw weight'.

I nearly did the same in saying you can't.

You're welcome to resort to abuse if you feel the need.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

It might be annoying for women who have worked and trained their whole lives to reach the pinnacle of women's sports, to be pushed aside by a person who has been training and competing in mens sport.

Has she been training and competing in men's sports?

 

[JohnD]

It looks like a similar massive change to me. There might be no going back. I haven't checked, but I'd assume there is no going back.

As are the transgender athlete, to go that far

you have failed to grasp the problem.

Self identification means you say the magic words "I am a woman."

You still seem to have the false idea that it means you have had surgical alterations, behavioural change, living a new life.

 

[JP_]

Is it fair that some athletes have superb training facilities and others don't?
Is it fair that some athletes have access to fantastic equipment and others don't?
Is it fair that some have access to the best diet, etc, and others don't?
Is it fair that some athletes and their families are pressurised into training and others aren't?
It's not the level playing field that it's made out to be. ('scuse the pun)

No, it is not fair, but it is also not cheating.

Here's what USA Powerlifting says on the matter:

USA Powerlifting, as a National Affiliate of the International Powerlifting Federation (IPF) adopted, and follows the policies as defined by the IPF Medical Committee which impact the participation of transgender individuals in events sanctioned by USA Powerlifting.​

Two areas of policy impact such participation:

The first has to do with the use of testosterone or other androgens, commonly used to assist in transition from female to male. By virtue of the anabolic nature of these compounds, they are not allowed, nor is a Therapeutic Use Exemption granted for such use for anyone. This applies to any and all medical conditions which might be treated through use of androgens.

The second area involves the participation of male to female competitors. Through analysis the impact of maturation in the presence naturally occurring androgens as the level necessary for male development, significant advantages are had, including but not limited to increased body and muscle mass, bone density, bone structure, and connective tissue. These advantages are not eliminated by reduction of serum androgens such as testosterone yielding a potential advantage in strength sports such as powerlifting.

The science behind this policy can be read in Dr Kris Hunt’s 2019 Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) Report. Dr Hunt presented this report at the National Governing Body (NGB) Meeting, his full presentation can be viewed on YouTube. (Supporting Powerpoint used during NGB Meeting.)

https://www.usapowerlifting.com/transgender-participation-policy/


There is a reason why men and women compete separately in sports.

​

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I'm glad you asked that stupid question, because it shows you have failed to grasp the problem.

There is no need to cut off a limb.

It would be akin to you simply running, on your two legs, into the sports committee, and saying "I have no legs, therefore I qualify to compete in the Paralympics"

She passed the tests to perform as a women.
When you perform as a paralympian you are categorised into a specific category associated with your disability. Experts assess you and allocate you a category.
That isn't possible with transgender sports (currently). You're in one category or the other. She passed the tests to compete as a woman.

 

[JP_]

You still seem to have the false idea that it means you have had surgical alterations, behavioural change, living a new life.

But even if you do have that, you still have the foundation of being a make with testosterone during your years of training.

The reason athletes are tested all the time, not just during competitions, is because testosterone allows them to become better. 10 years advantage in your training makes you a winner, it is not what your testosterone count is on the day of the competition that matters.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

You can find an argument so easily, even when there isn't one.

I'm not arguing.
I'm just responding to the points raised.

 

[JohnD]

I'm not arguing.
I'm just responding to the points raised.

you are making assertions based on incorrect assumptions.

like these

It looks like a similar massive change to me. There might be no going back. I haven't checked, but I'd assume there is no going back.

As are the transgender athlete, to go that far

 

[JP_]

Has she been training and competing in men's sports?

Tried and failed, was not good enough to beat men.

In fact, "At 20, Hubbard set a junior record in the 105+kg category with a total lift of 300kg." - so was successful as a male junior weight lifter. Link.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

you have failed to grasp the problem.

Self identification means you say the magic words "I am a woman."

You still seem to have the false idea that it means you have had surgical alterations, behavioural change, living a new life.

There are tests (I keep nearly misspelling that word, "tests" Freudian slip again) that have to be passed and she passed them. She can't simply claim to be a woman, she has to pass the current tests.
And please don't be so condescending as to assume what I understand to be transgender. It's not necessary, and not worthy of you, nor the discussion.

 

[JohnD]

what I understand to be transgender

this

It looks like a similar massive change to me. There might be no going back. I haven't checked, but I'd assume there is no going back.

As are the transgender athlete, to go that far

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

No, it is not fair, but it is also not cheating.

Here's what USA Powerlifting says on the matter:

USA Powerlifting, as a National Affiliate of the International Powerlifting Federation (IPF) adopted, and follows the policies as defined by the IPF Medical Committee which impact the participation of transgender individuals in events sanctioned by USA Powerlifting.​

Two areas of policy impact such participation:

The first has to do with the use of testosterone or other androgens, commonly used to assist in transition from female to male. By virtue of the anabolic nature of these compounds, they are not allowed, nor is a Therapeutic Use Exemption granted for such use for anyone. This applies to any and all medical conditions which might be treated through use of androgens.

The second area involves the participation of male to female competitors. Through analysis the impact of maturation in the presence naturally occurring androgens as the level necessary for male development, significant advantages are had, including but not limited to increased body and muscle mass, bone density, bone structure, and connective tissue. These advantages are not eliminated by reduction of serum androgens such as testosterone yielding a potential advantage in strength sports such as powerlifting.

The science behind this policy can be read in Dr Kris Hunt’s 2019 Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) Report. Dr Hunt presented this report at the National Governing Body (NGB) Meeting, his full presentation can be viewed on YouTube. (Supporting Powerpoint used during NGB Meeting.)

https://www.usapowerlifting.com/transgender-participation-policy/


There is a reason why men and women compete separately in sports.

​

I assume those in charge of the Olympics are aware of this report, and have taken the comments on board, or not. I don't know.
Until there is some classification to separate male and female and transgender, we are where we are.
Until such times as some classification exists, I prefer to see inclusion rather than exclusion.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

you are making assertions based on incorrect assumptions.

like these

Are there any transgender athletes who have transitioned, and then transitioned back again?
Are there any transgender people who have transitioned, passed the olympics tests for competing as a woman, then later transitioned back again?
I would assume they would have to relinquish any medals or titles, if they did so.