NICEIC allows use of green/yellow conductor as live

[Taylortwocities]

Well, I never did!. After everything we've been saying it seems that NICEIC allows the green/yellow conductor in 3-core flex to be used as a live conductor (ie switched live to a timed fan).

Read, 514.4.2 and weep

http://www.voltimum.co.uk/sites/www...ic_sleevingearthcore_earth_as_a_conductor.pdf

 

[JohnW2]

Well, I never did!. After everything we've been saying it seems that NICEIC allows the green/yellow conductor in 3-core flex to be used as a live conductor (ie switched live to a timed fan). Read, 514.4.2 and weep

Hmmmm! As we've discussed many times before ,the regs do not seem to forbid the use of (appropriately oversleeved) G/Y as a live conductor - 514.4.2 merely prevents a live conductor being 'identified' with G/Y colours, but 'identification' by over-sleeving is accepted (524.3.2).

However, as we've also discussed, none of that solves the problem of the requirement (can't remember what reg off the top of my head) to run a CPC to every point, load and accessory (even if a CPC is not needed there). So, unless some other cable provides a CPC, it's hard to see how an arrangement using an oversleeved G/Y can be compliant with the regs as a whole.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Taylortwocities]

Yes, the Snag doc seems to concentrate on not allowing singles in trunking to be oversleeved at the ends (fair enough) but I was suprised at the 'guidance'.

Im also wondering how the installer would be able to determine the EFLI at the fan's terminals. But hey, what do I know….

 

[Lectrician]

It was in the NIC mag last year! Horrible!

 

[OwainDIYer]

However, as we've also discussed, none of that solves the problem of the requirement (can't remember what reg off the top of my head) to run a CPC to every point, load and accessory (even if a CPC is not needed there).

the exception being a Class II insulated pendant lampholder from a ceiling rose.

Having recently experienced a situation where green/yellow had been used through the wall into the bathroom and wired for switched live at the supply end but as earth at the bathroom end meaning the faceplate screws on the FCU (surface plastic box) in the bathroom were live, I cannot encourage the use of g/y as anything other than electrical earth under any circimstances.

It's just plain bloody nasty, cheap and shoddy idea used by "professional" sparkies who don't have multicore flex 'on the van' and won't spend the time waiting for the proper stuff to arrive from ebay

 

[JohnW2]

Im also wondering how the installer would be able to determine the EFLI at the fan's terminals. But hey, what do I know….

Much the same, I suppose, as wondering how to determine the EFLI at the terminals of a pendant lampholder which is hanging off a 2-core cable.

In both situations, I suppose one answer is that there really is no such thing as 'the EFLI' to measure in the absence of a CPC. If one used some other connection to earth to make an 'EFLI' measurement, the answer one got would not be the 'EFLI' (whatever that would mean in the absence of a CPC) of the circuit in question.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Aragorn84]

and won't spend the time waiting for the proper stuff to arrive from ebay

Or driving the 5 minutes to the nearest factors...

 

[bernardgreen]

The use of the bare single insulated copper conductor for any purpose other than a ground, earth or CPC creates a serious hazard to anyone who does any work involving the cable.

If a "professional" organisation is advocating it's use as a Live conductor then the integrity of that organisation is suspect.

 

[JohnW2]

The use of the bare single insulated copper conductor for any purpose other than a ground, earth or CPC creates a serious hazard to anyone who does any work involving the cable.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "bare single insulated conductor"?

I think that many/most would probably agree that, even with approriate over-sleeving at the ends", use of a G/Y-insulated core of flex as a live conductor is a pretty dubious practice and, as you say, a potential hazard. However, as above, provided it is over-sleeved, such a practice would, in itself, probably be compliant with BS7671.

Use of the bare CPC of T+E cable as a live conductor would obviously be ridiculous, dangerous and totally unacceptable - but I don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest that such would be acceptable (although I, and undoubtedly many others, have seen it done!!).

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "bare single insulated conductor"?

The earth wire in twin and earth ( aka the CPC )

 

[JohnW2]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "bare single insulated conductor"?

The earth wire in twin and earth ( aka the CPC )

Thanks for clarifying. In that case, as I said, I don't think that anyone in their right mind would suggest (or, AFAIAA, ever has suggested) that such a conductor could be used as a live conductor (even if many of us have seen it done!).

That, of course, is not what this thread is about.

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

My point was that almost all sensible electricians would treat a green / yellow core in a cable in the same way as they would treat the bare conductor in twin and earth. Both are by common usage known as earth or CPC conductors.

That said one should NEVER assume a core is an earth wire and should always verify that it is an earth or CPC. But how many people would verify the green yellow core is an earth and not a Live

I fear that saying it is OK to use a green yellow core in flex will allow people to consider that using the bare copper as a live conductor is also OK.

 

[JohnW2]

My point was that almost all sensible electricians would treat a green / yellow core in a cable in the same way as they would treat the bare conductor in twin and earth. Both are by common usage known as earth or CPC conductors. That said one should NEVER assume a core is an earth wire and should always verify that it is an earth or CPC. But how many people would verify the green yellow core is an earth and not a Live. I fear that saying it is OK to use a green yellow core in flex will allow people to consider that using the bare copper as a live conductor is also OK.

I doubt that (m)any sensible people would disagree with any of that and would imagine that most would therefore regard over-sleeving of a G/Y-insulated core of flex as being an undesirable practice.

If you feel strongly, maybe you should suggest to those who write the regs that 514.4.2 (or some other regulation) should be revised such as to outlaw the use of any over-sleeved G/Y-insulated conductor as something other than CPC/earth?

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

If you feel strongly, maybe you should suggest to those who write the regs that 514.4.2 (or some other regulation) should be revised such as to outlaw the use of any over-sleeved G/Y-insulated conductor as something other than CPC/earth?

Perhaps we should suggest that it should be oversleeved (or otherwise identified) over it's whole length lest someone tap into the cable to (for example) add an extra light. I'd like to see someone try that

 

[mfarrow]

A sheathed (but otherwise bare) conductor is not the same as an insulated and sheathed conductor, which is not the same as an insulated conductor.

In my opinion if I see a green/yellow core with brown sleeve over it going to the S/L, L, L1, C, L2 terminal of an accessory, it's pretty clear what it's doing. If the same core has a blue sleeving and going to the N terminal, it's pretty clear what it's doing. If there's a grey core with g/y sleeve going to the earth terminal, it's pretty clear what it's doing.