Oh great, yet another scheme - PRS inspections !

Indeed not, but those people are not the problem.
I don't know about the situation which gas (although I would imagine it's probably quite similar to electricians), but "those people" surely are the issue in terms of what I was discussing.

I think you need to follow the posts in this branch of the thread, it which case you will find that it started with:
And what of those who are competent but are prepared to throw competent work practices out of the window for commercial gain?
It is many/most of those competent (but not necessarily conscientious) people, who would be undertaking EICRs legally if 'licensing' was introduced, who would probably be encouraged to be more conscientious if they were at risk of 'losing their licence', and thereby having to either stop doing EICRs or carrying on doing them illegally, for less financial reward and with much more difficulty in finding customers.

I think we only have to consider three categories of electricians (and 'electricians') undertaking EICRs:

1...Those who are both competent/capable and conscientious, even without licensing. They are obviously no problem.
2...Those above - competent but not necessarily always conscientious. As above, I think licensing (if reasonably well policed) would encourage most of them to be conscientious.
3...Those who are incompetent/incapable (and probably not 'conscientious', either). These need to be identified (which policed licensing hopefully would achieve in a good few cases) and have their licenses revoked and/or undergo 're-training' and assessment.

Kind Regards, John
 
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I take your point, but I was thinking more of the #2s who were already finding that they were having to compete with the #3s.

The problem is that the licensing system would not be reasonably well policed, quite possibly not even poorly policed - none of them ever are, it costs too much money.

Category 4: Those who simply do not care about a licensing system, and carry on regardless.
 
Yes, but people keep voting for the party which doesn't want there to be social or affordable housing, and which wants to impoverish people in order to enrich corporations.
Not necessarily, when there's a system where you effectively get to choose between two options, you choose the one you dislike the least :rolleyes: Taking the topic in hand (PRS), the other choice is a bunch of financially illiterate people who believe (against all the past evidence) that (for example) rent controls are a good way of improving the quality of rented accommodation.

You mean distort the market.
The housing market is working exactly as a market works - it is anything but "broken" as some professional liars would have us believe. Demand is higher than the supply, therefore prices go up. Simples. "Help" in the form of some sort of subsidy to FTBs will do nothing except increase demand, and therefore drive prices higher.
I don't disagree at all with that.
And since you mention markets, there's plenty of evidence that free markets produce much better outcomes than centrally planned economies. In some cases there needs to be some control to avoid dominant parties from distorting it to their own ends, but in general a market will sort itself out.
With housing, I blame the Town and Country Planning Act of (IIRC) 1947 and it's subsequent versions. The primary purpose of the act is to introduce controls which distort the supply side of the market by restricting supply - and after several decades of such market restriction we are now reaping the result.

It was "interesting" to watch a series called "The Planners" a while ago on TV. I recall one case where a developer wanted to extend a village by building (IIRC) something like 100 houses on a green field site. One of the planners visited the site and met with objectors complaining that it would destroy the feel of the village. Every one of those protesters lived in a relatively modern house - ie something that was built as something they are now complaining about :whistle: And that's half the problem, pandering to the "I've got a nice house now, lets pull the ladder up and stop 'the wrong sort' being able to get theirs and spoil my view" types.

I took "provide" to mean "create", not offer. Private landlords cannot build developments of rental property. Governments can (local or central). Corporations can.
Really ? Governments (local or central) don't build houses, neither do corporations (generally) - what they DO do is to pay others to build houses for them. There's an inference that a private individual cannot pay for a new house to be built ?
But most housing is built by organisations (of varying sizes) with a view to profit - ie they spot a suitable parcel of land, go through the process of getting some plans drawn up and approved, then build the houses and sell them (hopefully for a lot more than it cost them to get them built). In some cases it's the one "house builder" doing the lot, but often it's some form of joint venture between someone who owns the land and someone with the skills and resources to build the houses.

As I've mentioned, a number of groups have pointed out that there's a big investment that has to happen between starting the process and having houses you can sell to raise capital. That's why the developers like to sell off-plan even if it means a discount - it gives them cash up front to fund the development. Without that up-front cash, they reckon many developments just wouldn't happen.
What it really comes down to is the old "people with available money can buy things" - whether that's new build houses off-plan, or flashy cars on the drive. And FTBs don't tend to be the sort of people with the spare cash to buy a new house off-plan while also still paying rent.

As you point out, the fix for the supposedly broken market is really quite simple - make it so that those who can and want to build more houses can do so without too much in the way of red tape and costs (like the CIL 'bribes'). Houses (usually) sell for more than the cost of building, so if you allow them to be built, people will build them.
Near where I live, there's an old industrial site that got partially developed. It's lain derelict for many years as the developer ran out of money and the bank that ended up owning it couldn't find anyone who'd buy it from them. The problem ? The planning conditions meant that they had to sell a lot of the houses as "affordable housing" - to the extent that no-one would take it on. So the end result is that instead of getting some affordable housing alongside the rest - they've got nothing at all so far :rolleyes:
 
the fix for the supposedly broken market is really quite simple
1. Put interest rates back to sensible levels, such as around 5-7%
2. Build a lot more houses. At least a million. And then either keep building 100000+ new homes every year, or cut immigration to almost nothing.
 
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Not necessarily, when there's a system where you effectively get to choose between two options, you choose the one you dislike the least :rolleyes:
No - absolutely never. You vote for the one you want, so if you, Simon, have been voting Conservative then you, Simon, want what they are doing.


Taking the topic in hand (PRS), the other choice is a bunch of financially illiterate people who believe (against all the past evidence) that (for example) rent controls are a good way of improving the quality of rented accommodation.
I don't think I'd be wrong to think that by "a bunch of financially illiterate people" you mean the Labour Party.

In which case you are so deluded, and so financially illiterate yourself, that no intelligent or rational discussion with you is possible. You carry on voting Tory, and you carry on reaping the benefits of a destroyed state, and don't you *(£&"$*( dare ever complain about it.


Really ? Governments (local or central) don't build houses, neither do corporations (generally) - what they DO do is to pay others to build houses for them. There's an inference that a private individual cannot pay for a new house to be built ?
Go on then Simon - go and build a house which you then rent out at a price which can be afforded by someone in a zero-hours, minimum-wage job. Let us know how your finances go.


make it so that those who can and want to build more houses can do so without too much in the way of red tape and costs (like the CIL 'bribes').
Those bribes would not be necessary if people like you didn't keep voting for a political party ideologically opposed to any state provision of housing.


Houses (usually) sell for more than the cost of building, so if you allow them to be built, people will build them.
Go on then Simon - go and buy a house which you then rent out at a price which can be afforded by someone in a zero-hours, minimum-wage job. Let us know how your finances go.
 
I take your point, but I was thinking more of the #2s who were already finding that they were having to compete with the #3s.
Fair enough, but I'm not at all sure that the #3s are quite as plentiful as you seem to think.
The problem is that the licensing system would not be reasonably well policed, quite possibly not even poorly policed - none of them ever are, it costs too much money.
Indeed, that's the problem with any system one might think of.

Kind Regards, John
 
I don't think I'd be wrong to think that by "a bunch of financially illiterate people" you mean the Labour Party.
Yes I do. They've demonstrated every time they've been in power that they are clueless, and the current lot are worse than ever.
In which case you are so deluded, and so financially illiterate yourself, that no intelligent or rational discussion with you is possible.
Ah, the resort to personal insults - the last resort of the person whose lost the argument.
You carry on voting Tory, and you carry on reaping the benefits of a destroyed state, and don't you *(£&"$*( dare ever complain about it.
Just because I voted for them doesn't mean I like what they are doing. And just because I voted for them doesn't mean I don't have a right to complain about things. As I said before, it's effectively a binary choice in this country at the moment - and the other lot would be worse.
And "destroyed state" is your opinion. Something had to be done given how Gordon Brown screwed things up, and the the US mortgage system (supported by greedy lying bankers) screwed things up globally.
For someone always criticising others for lack of logic, you are displaying something of a deficiency today.

Go on then Simon - go and build a house which you then rent out at a price which can be afforded by someone in a zero-hours, minimum-wage job. Let us know how your finances go.
Ah, not so much moving the goalposts as a different game on a different field. If you meant "cheap houses rented below market rates" then you should have said so.
But I've got news for you ...
Social Housing rents have been rising faster than Private Sector rents over the last few years meaning that social housing isn't as cheap to rent as you might think.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...imes-quicker-than-average-wages-a6847421.html
https://www.jrf.org.uk/file/37457/download?token=JT1KLeCY&filetype=findings - note that JRF has something of a reputation of being "anti-PRS", and this dates from 1995 showing that the rising social rents are not a new phenomenon.
 
Yes I do. They've demonstrated every time they've been in power that they are clueless, and the current lot are worse than ever.
Whereas, of course, the ones currently in power are doing an absolutely splendid job, aren't they.


Ah, the resort to personal insults - the last resort of the person whose lost the argument.
Let's see.

Who was it who first used the term "financially illiterate"?

Umm.

Oh yes - that will be you, that will.


the other lot would be worse.
Like I said - you are deluded.


And "destroyed state" is your opinion.
No - it's the Tory's stated aim.


Something had to be done given how Gordon Brown screwed things up, and the the US mortgage system (supported by greedy lying bankers) screwed things up globally.
For someone always criticising others for lack of logic, you are displaying something of a deficiency today.
OK - so in what way did he screw things up?


Ah, not so much moving the goalposts as a different game on a different field. If you meant "cheap houses rented below market rates" then you should have said so.
No - I meant houses available in the market at rates the customers of that market can afford.


But I've got news for you ...
Social Housing rents have been rising faster than Private Sector rents over the last few years meaning that social housing isn't as cheap to rent as you might think.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...imes-quicker-than-average-wages-a6847421.html
https://www.jrf.org.uk/file/37457/download?token=JT1KLeCY&filetype=findings - note that JRF has something of a reputation of being "anti-PRS", and this dates from 1995 showing that the rising social rents are not a new phenomenon.
And I suppose that those increases have nothing to do with the government redefining "affordable" and cutting the funding of local government, have they.
 
Got a reference for that ? I rather think they've never said that, it's just your view of what they are doing/have stated they want to do.
They have a goal to reduce public expenditure to a share of GDP not seen here since the 1930s, and to a level below almost every country in Europe.

Given how many people are dying right now because of the cuts so far, given how the NHS is on its knees right now because of the cuts so far, given how thousands of head teachers are warning the government of the serious problems arising from the latest promised cuts, given how the police are warning of security risks, given how we have a higher percentage of child poverty than most other European countries right now and are forecasting millions more over the next 5 years from more cuts yet to come, it beggars belief that anyone could not regard all that as destruction.


You have to ask ?
You can't answer?
 
They have a goal to reduce public expenditure to a share of GDP not seen here since the 1930s, and to a level below almost every country in Europe.
So they have not in fact said what you claimed - what you claimed is your interpretation of the possible effects of their policies. In other words, you lied.

... given how we have a higher percentage of child poverty than most other European countries right now ...
We actually have very little child poverty. What we do have is a sizeable proportion of children in a new category with different criteria which has been labelled child poverty (but which isn't) for political point scoring. Everything is in the detail, and you have to be very careful what people are talking about when they call something "poverty" - often it will be whatever props up whatever agenda they are pushing the best ! In particular, you have to watch out for "relative poverty" expressed as those with <something> less than some fraction of the mean - because that can easily mislead since as the mean goes up (as a result of improving everyone's standard) then people who were previously not in poverty suddenly get shifted into "poverty" although they are no worse off.

You can't answer?
Yes I can. Just the easy ones to start with :
• Raiding pension pots in a tax grab which he was warned would cause immense damage to pensions - and which caused immense damage to pensions. And that damage to pension systems, and the distrust he created, is one reason why people have been putting their money into other things (like property) instead of pensions. IIRC his advisor on that one was the same person behind Maxwell's pension scheme :rolleyes:
• Selling off our gold reserves at the bottom of the market to prop up his "spend ever more than we can afford" approach to things.

It's clear that we are never going to agree on these points - so we might as well agree to disagree. You appear to worship at the church of St Jezza, I believe that the type of socialism he talks about would be far worse for the economy than what's going on now. Socialism does seem to be working well for Venezuela :whistle:
 
Must be an awful lot of liars around, then, including the Parliament website. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=conservative+public+expenditure+reduction

Or, could it be, I wonder, if you are the liar?
No, it's no good moving the goalposts and then calling someone a liar. Further up I said
And "destroyed state" is your opinion.
to which you replied
No - it's the Tory's stated aim

So, I challenge you to find an official statement from the Tories where they state that destroying the state is their aim. I didn't say where people have INTERPRETED their policies as possibly having that effect, but where the Tories stated that it's their aim. As the saying goes, put up or shut up.

Yes - we will agree do disagree, because your skewed version of "reality" is so far from true that you are beyond reason.
...
I truly never realised until now what a truly selfish person you are. I genuinely hope that whatever is done to the PRS, it causes you to lose every penny you have, for you need a serious lesson in the reality of the callous indifference of the Tories, even in matters of life and death of the people in this country.
And here you are again. You don't agree with someone so that other person has to be "bad". That you would use the sort of language you are using is quite telling, that you have such little grasp of things that you have to resort to out and out insults and nastiness. But then I'm sure you are happy in your own cocoon of reality.
While I'm sure you can find plenty of "experts" who will provide "proof" of your viewpoint, you would also (if you looked) find other "experts" supporting the other views. As much as you believe the Tories are "evil" and callous, I believe that Labour's socialist policies would be worse - and have been shown to be worse in the past.
The best way to get people out of poverty (of whichever definition) is to have a strong and thriving economy that can support everyone. I know many argue that "only the rich get richer", but when the rich get richer, they pay more tax, they invest that money, that grows jobs etc, and that benefits everyone. At one time, Labour took the other line of "squeeze the rich till they squeak" and the result (IIRC there was something like a 98% tax rate at one point) was that the rich went away and the tax take went DOWN. Look up the Laffer curve.

But it is even clearer now that you have no intention of considering any viewpoint other than "Tories bad, Labour (socialism) good" regardless of the evidence, so as I said before, it's probably best to agree to disagree.
 
• Raiding pension pots in a tax grab which he was warned would cause immense damage to pensions - and which caused immense damage to pensions.

that's a story which is often bandied about, but the effects on any pensioner were in fact trivial. The high and hidden charges which L&P co's used to make (some still do) damaged the pensioners more.

I can give you a worked example if you want.
 
I don't know why your scheme closed, but it was not because of the tax.

Usually schemes close because they have been underfunded for years, and the directors realise that increasing payments to the scheme would reduce profits for the shareholders.

Perhaps somebody told you a story.
 

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