Oh no, not another Ravenheat....

[housebrokenagain]

Hello all,

I have read all of the posts on here about what I am trying to find out but to no avail so far, so I'm sorry if this is a bit similar to what has already been asked.

I am training to be a plumber/gas engineer and am slowly getting to grips with things, but I have a problem with my own house that I cannot solve as yet.

I wondered if someone could help me with what may be wrong, and also why, so I know for next time.

The Ravenheat (yes I know, but it was installed by a (rubbish) gas engineer when I had the house done four years ago and before I started training) CSI 85BT has the following problem - the hot water will come on, boiler fires fine, gets warm enough to have a shower and then goes out.

The water will then get properly cold again for a significant amount of time (a minute or so) and then it will repeat the process.... I can usually get it to work and settle on a temperature if I start if off as a trickle, then turn the hot tap up a bit, but it usually takes a few goes of doing this to get an even flow, and even then it is not at a particularly high rate.

The central heating works absolutely fine, and to confuse me slightly more, if the central heating has been on for 5 minutes or so, the hot water will then work fine and a steady hot flow can be achieved.

This started after there was a leak a while ago which I rectified by tightening a weeping joint. I also (perhaps foolishly) used Fernox leak sealer at the time. It says that it is suitable for all boilers including combis but I have since heard that this could clog the heat exchangers.

To try and rectify this so far I have replaced the clip on CH sensor (recommended in several threads, but I don't fully understand why) and have bought a new DHW sensor (wet pocket one) and tried the boiler with the old one disconnected from the wires but in-situe and the new one plugged in but just 'swinging free' - my theory was that if this was the issue the boiler would just heat up to too hot a temperature and not cut out. But it just cut out in exactly the same way.

The diverter valve is working - pin coming in and out. (Just thinking out loud after re-reading the post before posting - could a minor split in the diaphragm washer be causing this? The pin would then presumably work more slowly than it should, slowing the activation of the switch?)

According to the other threads I have looked at the plate heat exchanger should be the next thing to look at (ie change) but I don't understand why it would work fine with the CH on and not with a cold system - if others agree with this and think it could be the problem could they explain why this would happen.

I want to understand and not just 'monkey see monkey do'. It seems to me that something is causing the boiler to cut out on the hw side when it has got to, or is approaching a sensible temperature at the bath taps then is not cutting the boiler back in fast enough when it gets cold - but only when the CH not on and warm....?

It is easier, incidentally, to get a steady hot flow at taps with a lower flow rate such as basin/sink, even when the system is cold.

Also, I presume on one of these style of boiler that it is supposed to modulate - ie the flame height will change with the flow of water - which it is not in this case - it just comes on or off, never changing flame height.

Now, just for finishers, I would just add that yes, I have done one of these intensive courses and yes I am aware that they are not all encompassing, but that is why I am here, asking what you guys would probably consider to be stupid questions - the plumber / heat engineer that I am doing my practical work with is very very good on the plumbing and with regular boilers but is not so good on diagnostics with new combis (ie electrical checks with multimeters etc.)

If there is anyone out there who focusses on this side of things in the Kent area who wants a slave to fetch and carry tools and and hang radiators and fix bathrooms within (relatively) easy reach of Tonbridge, Kent, please let me know as I catch on pretty quick and could be useful to you.

Any further comments or checks I can do please let me know and I can repost the response on here. Sorry it is such a long post, thought I'd try to get ALL the info I can think of on here.

Many thanks in advance.

 

[SortedPlumbing]

1st thing you need to do is make sure you have the correct flow rate @ your tap, ie roughly 9/10 litres of water per min.

 

[Deleted member 105431]

1st thing you need to do is make sure you have the correct flow rate @ your tap, ie roughly 9/10 litres of water per min.

Second thing to do is buy a decent boiler.

 

[gas4you]

Too long a post for my short attention span

 

[Agile]

Fixing boilers is not just chamging parts, at least not if its being done properly.

You need to diagnose the problem and that needs test equipment and to make measurements.

Measure the primary flow and return temperatures to the plate HE and post them here.

The lack of modulation could have several causes and being gas related I cannot advise you about that.

Can you inspect the inside of the flue tube and tell me if its plastic or metal?

Tony

 

[onlyfitidealboilers]

not another one jesus christ

there is going to be more plumbers than any others trade 3 to 1

dont all you trainee plumbers get it, i was earning more 8 years ago than i do now an its down to all these office bods doing these ****ty short courses

i have an we should all be made by law we advertise how we became qualified an am sure id be mad busy again..

i wonder if there was a short course in politics the guvment would allow training center to set up (i think not)

theyt have massively de valued my qualifications & the 5 years i spent training, joke

 

[housebrokenagain]

Thanks Agile, I realise that there's more to fixing boilers than changing bits until you chance upon the right one - that's why I originally wanted to do this - a reputable plumbing company in my home town came round and just changed bits until they found that a thermistor was that was all that was required - £10 bit, £450 bill. New PCB, new 3 port valve etc etc. I will come back to you with the bits you have asked for as soon as possible - I work week on week off away from home to support myself while training and I'm away at the moment.

I want to learn it right - sorry to onlyfitidealboilers that I had to pay to do my course - yes it was only twelve weeks full time, but now I'm fully aware that I'm going to spend some years gaining the relevant experience in practical terms. I've got to start somewhere....! Guessing you did a free course at a local college that I'm not eligible for......

Thanks for coming back to me people, I'll post again shortly (Monday I think)

 

[PEDANTICVINDICTIVEMAN]

I don't know about Ideal, but I spent 5 years on a pittance wage with one day a week at college and 3 nights a week, with the vision of "having a trade" at the end of it, as a teenager this cut a lot into my spare time, my parents who "both" worked supported me, of course my parents lost their tax relief with me "earning" ha fukin ha, the firm I worked for payed my college fees, but they did extremely well out of the deal with the amount of cheap labour they got out of me 5.5 days a week, my parents paid for my driving lessons and test, I passed at 17, so I was also able to drive for the firm as well for the next 4 years, so they got there moneys worth out of me 10 times over.
Now I still have to pay to redo my Assesments every 5 years ect, so it certainly has NEVER EVER been free for me.

 

[housebrokenagain]

Hey Pedantic Vindictive Man,

I can top that! I work one week (a seven day week 24 hours a day at minimum wage I might add) and then the next week I work for free with a plumber and heating engineer (in fact it costs me because I have to get there and back and pay for lunch etc).

Its really hard because I'm effectively doing three full time jobs. If anyone has any suggestions of how else I could do it I'd be more than grateful as I don't qualify for free courses (yes, they're free to you if your employer is paying for you!) And you mentioned they paid you a pittance - more than nothing then....?

I've noticed that a few posts are aimed at people who are genuinely trying to better themselves - if they/the courses are soooo rubbish, why would you have anything to fear - surely people will just come to you as you never get anything wrong.... Unless you're actually afraid of the competition....?

I have no doubt that you're an infinitely better plumber and gas engineer than me, but you have more experience. That's what I'm getting now. And if you read my post, you'll notice that the reason I wanted to get into this is because of an 'old school, college trained, four years apprenticed monkey who was apparently a long serving employee of a 'reputable' local firm changing every bit on a boiler to find out it was a thermistor at my expense.....

I want to learn to do it properly - there are pros and cons to learning it either way, it just depends on the person you are.

Give us a chance! And 'office bods' to whoever put that? What did I do before I did this? Perhaps you should ask before making assumptions.....

But I am a friendly guy and as I said I don't want to row - it might just be that this is one person who will make it through determination and having a bit of grit to go against all the detractors.

Having said that, anyone know what is wrong with my my boiler and why? lol !!!!

 

[onlyfitidealboilers]

for every good lad that comes out of these short courses there are 20 bad ones, who leave gas leaks etc, an to be honest i do some work for another firm an am fed up sweeping up there mess, the guvment seem to think any one can work on gas & plumbing, this is a very complex trade an can take 10 years before you fully understand the job, its not like plastering, bricklaying, electrics. there all the same there is never change..

what did you used to do?

i wasn't aiming that at you directly that is just what i see every day.

these lads dont bother me as there all useless, what bothers me is there used to min wage so there made up for £10 an hour. an the industry has gone to the dogs because the customer dosnt know who she is getting does she? there is me charging £1600.00 for a combi combi swap, then here comes back door effort who says tell you what ill do it for 1k. made up with £100 for the day.

am sorry but your in for a very rude awaking if you think your going to earn 25k, 30k, 40k as these training center tell you. you will be lucky to get min wage.

 

[onlyfitidealboilers]

for every good lad that comes out of these short courses there are 20 bad ones, who leave gas leaks etc, an to be honest i do some work for another firm an am fed up sweeping up there mess, the guvment seem to think any one can work on gas & plumbing, this is a very complex trade an can take 10 years before you fully understand the job, its not like plastering, bricklaying, electrics. there all the same there is never change..

what did you used to do?

i wasn't aiming that at you directly that is just what i see every day.

these lads dont bother me as there all useless, what bothers me is there used to min wage so there made up for £10 an hour. an the industry has gone to the dogs because the customer dosnt know who she is getting does she? there is me charging £1600.00 for a combi combi swap, then here comes back door effort who says tell you what ill do it for 1k. made up with £100 for the day.

am sorry but your in for a very rude awaking if you think your going to earn 25k, 30k, 40k as these training center tell you. you will be lucky to get min wage.

 

[housebrokenagain]

This is turning into a real debate. I'm here 24/7 until Monday so we can keep going!!

I'm only up for friendly banter though!

I've done various things workwise and not used to earning minimum wage (like I am now)

I have worked as a psychologist and currently working as a carer to fund living while training. I have also run car dealerships (car sales turned plumber don't hold it against me!) and I have also worked a lot as a general labourer involved with a company that renovates houses from top to bottom. Generally victorian terraces.

I appreciate that it will take me a good while to get up to a good standard but it is a concerted effort to do things right and not rip people off like I was ripped off!

The self employed guy I work (unpaid) for has got to be earning somewhere between £40-60k p/a I would guestimate after expenses but tax to come off after that. The training centre talked figures even higher than that but I would have thought as long as I am competent I should be able to earn £30kpa. Is this unrealistic - don't forget wages are higher down here in Kent than Aberdeen....

He is very busy all the time, turns work away and tries not to employ other people as it just turns to hassle as he finds other people's work is not up to scratch, and if it is, they soon go off to work on their own....

All views welcome......

 

[Agile]

I have worked as a psychologist and currently working as a carer to fund living while training. I have also run car dealerships (car sales turned plumber don't hold it against me!)

All views welcome......

The only way that you can legally work as a psychologist is to have been fully trained and the earnings are rather higher than anyone in plumbing. My ed psyc friend earns about £65k.

Why would a psychologist leave a £40k job to become a labourer?

I usually find that people who boast about having had high flying jobs but are currently doing min wage jobs are telling untruths!

Here is a job for you in your area with much higher earnings than you will ever get in plumbing:-

Clinical Counselling Psychologist
Sector: Psychology
Type: Permanent
Reference no: mhj9055
Location: South East
Salary: £38,851 to £46,621 pa per year
Closing date: 16/02/2011

 

[housebrokenagain]

Hey, I said be nice!!

Who was boasting about anything? Just as there are lots of different plumbers and gas engineers earning lots of differing amounts of money there are also lots of different types of psychologists earning lots of differing amounts of money.

I've never earned anything like the money listed there from anything Psychology related - I earned more as a labourer and car sales than the Psychology!

I did a full degree in Psychology (at a good University after getting good A-levels) out of interest rather than a desire to be a Psychologist after essentially being pushed towards an academic qualification by well meaning educated parents, whereas what I should have done from the very beginning was train from the age of 16 doing something practical, as I am doing now. Except now I have to pay for it and do it slowly rather than get it for free whilst living at home with Mum and Dad. Its a lot harder doing it this way, I promise.

I was lucky enough to make some money out of doing something entirely unrelated to all of this to pay for the course, but I still have to work to pay all the monthly bills while I'm doing the training. And how do you propose I work to build up my portfolio of work if I'm working full time as a Psychologist.

I'll get back to you with those temperatures if you're still prepared to help?

P.S. That job you listed was for a clinical Psychologist, something quite different to a Social Psychologist which is my training - more observing peoples behaviours and patterns of behaviours. It could lead on to that but I would have to go down the clinical route rather than the social route which would, again, be years more training....

 

[bengasman]

...i was earning more 8 years ago than i do now an its down to all these office bods doing these s short courses

That is not the reason you are earning less today.

It doesn't matter how much equal/fair competition there is, if you run a good business, you will earn money.

The real reason we, as an industry, are suffering, is an amalgamation of 3 factors.

1. Thirteen years of Labour have ruined our economy, created more public spending and debt than ever in history, and pulled more than 2 million needless, pointless, artificial jobs out of the magician's hat to make it look like the economy was a lot better.
2. Thirteen years of Labour have opened the doors for countless illegals, both illegal immigrants as well as illegal gasworkers who do not have the overheads and/or costs of doing a job correctly, that legitimate installers have, and thus can work very cheaply.
3. Thirteen years of Labour have created an enormous amount of costs in times of money and time to legitimate installers, adding significantly to the price of our work.

As a result, we now have more than 10,000,000 people out of work (data from the office for national statistics ), 5000 billion pound in debts, and crime higher than ever in history.

The vast majority of people that have done fast track courses never earn their money back, as they have even bigger problems than those of us who have been in the trade for years. They are a drop in the ocean compared to the problem of experiencing the worst recession in living memory, and the fact that the government/justice system are so overrun by bigger crime that nobody is really interested in catching illegal installers who can work for rates we could never offer.