Old hotspur boiler ignition problems

[Brown9932]

I have a really really old hotspur boiler by BSA which has been great over the years. Last year it took to not igniting (no sparking). This was an intermittent thing, and would sometimes go, sometimes not. The motor always spun up but the spark sometimes didn't work. To get it going I would flick the cut off on the honeywell box until it decided to go. I was sold the story that the electrodyn transformer thingy was knackered and payed to have a spare fitted. It then fired up, so I thought it was sorted. It then went intermittent again, but the boiler guys said it would have knackered the replacement coil, which it obviously hasn't as it still sometimes works.
In other words, I'm fairly certain the transformer was never the problem. I k ow naff all about these things, but am suspicious about the honeywell box.......has anyone got any ideas. We've messed around with the ignition rod, and when it works it works so I'm assuming as it has no moving parts, that's not the problem.
The other thing the boiler guys mentioned was that there can develop a crack in the casing and this can cause this problem.
I really want to keep this great old boiler as it warms the house in no time, and we don't use it much, so the economy is by the by. [/code]

 

[spraggo]

The spark electrode will in time burn a hole in the flame ring where it earths. If this is the case it can be repaired with a piece of 3/16 metal about 2" square folded in half and tightly slid down over the flame ring to cover the hole

 

[Brown9932]

Already put a piece of stainless steel over the hole. It made not difference, other than looked nice......it still did or didn't fire!
Thanks though

 

[spraggo]

Already put a piece of stainless steel over the hole. It made not difference, other than looked nice......it still did or didn't fire!
Thanks though

And you have obviously reset the flame detection probe, the one that sticks out above the sight glass

 

[Boilerman2]

Have you replaced the igition lead between the Transformer and the Electrode?? these can break down and there is sometimes an inline suppressor fitted which can be discarded, HOWEVER next to no parts are availible for any kind of Wallflame these days and as they get older and more unreliable they can become EXTREMELY DANGEROUS....Intermittant Ignition on a Wallfalme CAN cause a MAJOR EXPLOSION!!

a few years i was called out by Essex Fire Brigade to a house in which a Wallflame had attemped a start whilst hot, the igintion was delayed for several seconds, the resulting explosion blew a big hole in the kitchen wall, and the external chimney stack collapsed through the roof of the house, unbelievebly no one was hurt in this instance!! but the lady who lived there had just left the kitchen, and was walking through the hall to the dining room when the boiler took off, so she was very very lucky..

this is not scaremongering, it can happen

I suggest a new boiler such as a Grant vortex ASAP (it will heat your house just as quick but...SAFELY!!)

 

[Brown9932]

I haven't reset the probe you mention as I don't know how to.
I donts think the lead has been changed either......
That may be worth looking at.
Can anyone suggest a source door one.
And can you rule out the controller box.....I'm still a bit suspicious about it.....if the lead was duff would it sometimes work then not?
As far as explosions are concerned, it's not blown up in 50 Years, and is in the outhouse where no one lives!

 

[Boilerman2]

Don't take my advice regarding your ticking time bomb if you do not wish to, there was a poster on here last year with an old wilson wallflame he knew best of course and carried on doing his own thing and laughing at advce given, however in the end it was not St Nick that called on Christmas eve but the Local Fire brigade after his last tinker caused the boiler to catch fire and set fire to his kitchen ...of course in 40 years it had never done that before.....(sounding familiar???)

 

[spraggo]

I haven't reset the probe you mention as I don't know how to.
I donts think the lead has been changed either......
That may be worth looking at.
Can anyone suggest a source door one.
And can you rule out the controller box.....I'm still a bit suspicious about it.....if the lead was duff would it sometimes work then not?
As far as explosions are concerned, it's not blown up in 50 Years, and is in the outhouse where no one lives!

The ignition lead is the same as used in the old car petrol engines with spark plugs and can be obtained from most car spares shops.

The probe has a green cover that can be removed to reveal the reset lever.
Regarding other spares, they are no longer available, if the motor for instance failed, it would be sudden death as far as your boiler is concerned.
spraggo

 

[Brown9932]

Managed to get it firing yesterday, having thought the the flue stat reset trick had cured it.......it started in the morning and then was fine all day.....wouldn't go this morning...typical!
One point to note, it's most difficult to fire when cold, but once it's been fired it will be fine for the rest of the day, or until turned off.
I've noted the wiring diagram on the inside of the control box, and all is correct. I was advised that there may be a problem with the cold start wiring with the flue stat, but don't really know how to check this......
It was also suggested that I could earth the flame ring by drilling right through the boiler, something I would not fancy trying.......was wondering if I could run a thick wire from it to somewhere else.......

 

[spraggo]

Managed to get it firing yesterday, having thought the the flue stat reset trick had cured it.......it started in the morning and then was fine all day.....wouldn't go this morning...typical!
One point to note, it's most difficult to fire when cold, but once it's been fired it will be fine for the rest of the day, or until turned off.
I've noted the wiring diagram on the inside of the control box, and all is correct. I was advised that there may be a problem with the cold start wiring with the flue stat, but don't really know how to check this......
It was also suggested that I could earth the flame ring by drilling right through the boiler, something I would not fancy trying.......was wondering if I could run a thick wire from it to somewhere else.......

Remove the flue stat, situated at the flue outlet, and clean the spiral spring with a soft brush, also check that the electric contacts are clean. The ignition is usually earthed with 10mm earth wire running from one of the transformers fixing studs to the mains earth terminal. Make sure that it is earthing to bare metal.

spraggo

 

[Boilerman2]

THe Hotspur does not have a Flue Stat it has a Pyrostat which does not have a cleanable element if you remove the cover, there is a small reset lever which you can flick a couple of times which will reset the "Cold" position. but if the burner tries to fire then it is not the pyrostat causing the problem - you are back to oil hight & Ignition

My previous comments regarding safety still stands & I urge you to think very carefully about fiddling with any Wallflame Boiler!!

 

[Brown9932]

Good news, problem sorted. When it would not go this morning I pulled off the lead to the ignitor, and both lead and tip were seriously dirty.
Cleaned both up, replaced....hey presto!
I think that's done it....simples!
I always thought it was something Minor as when you live with an appliance you get to know it and how it copes.
I think it was only reliable at temperature because the expansion was improving the connections .
The oil has always been swirling fine and it's always cut in and out properly once going.
I'm disheartened by the lack of troubleshooting by my local firm....Im a reasonable mechanic and when a car won't start I go through a procedure of testing. Their random diagnosis and random replacement of working parts demonstrates a complacency that they know what's wrong before they even look at it. Perhaps it's not in their interest to find the fault.
Sure it's old, but I bet it's still going long after mAny new boilers fitted this winter.
Once again thanks to all.

 

[Brown9932]

Boiler been fine all day....would not spark tonight. Gutted.
Next move.....?

 

[Terrywookfit]

Do you have the correct voltage to ign Txfr at the Protector relay.

 

[Brown9932]

Now I'm lost!
Does anyone know of any good lads up north Yorkshire way who'd be able to diagnose it?
I'm 20 miles north of York!