Online boiler providers - good option or spawn of the devil?

[muggles]

HG accreditation is a fairly new thing as the courses have only come out recently. Everyone on the map should have passed both the Awakening and Mastery courses (you'll find me on there if you know where to look )

 

[MJN]

Thanks @muggles - most useful. Could you elaborate on the 'better modulation' aspect of the Xclusive 24?

Regarding installers, I've been making an assumption that it wouldn't be a good idea to be force a manufacturer selection on an installer but rather part of my selection criteria should be what manufacturer(s) they've aligned themselves too. I am thinking in terms of them knowing the nuances of particular boilers, particularly something like an Intergas which by all accounts aren't short of hidden features that don't quite make it into the UK documentation sets. On that basis whilst WB installer are ten-a-penny I am not seeing anywhere near as much choice when it comes to Intergas.

 

[MJN]

(you'll find me on there if you know where to look )

I just have!

All joking aside, the kind of people that choose to go on these more advanced/in-depth courses, the kind that are genuinely interested in the subject they work in, the kind of people that talk about boilers on here when they're not fitting them, are *exactly* the kind of people I am looking for and would welcome with open arms! On reflection, and going back to my opening post, I guess that's not likely to happen through these online fixed quote portals.

(Before you ask, I am 73 miles / 1hr 56min from you! )

 

[Junglejames]

Another option could be the Viessmann 200.
Very good modulation and Opentherm compliant. Works nicely with its own weather comp.
Plus a Stainless Steel heat exchanger, which supposedly maintain their efficiency much longer.
Gives you a couple of options at least.

 

[MJN]

Gives you a couple of options at least.

It does indeed, thanks @Junglejames. I'm smiling typing this though as soon enough I'll have plenty of options and then I'm back to square one again!

 

[muggles]

The Xclusive will modulate down to 3.6kW, a significant improvement over the 6.1 on the SB (although the SB can be made to go a bit lower than 6.1, but not much).

WB installers are ten a penny but nine of those are WB installers because they're easy to sell. Their installer loyalty scheme is based on how many boilers they fit in a year rather than any kind of quality or technical knowledge. Most of them won't have even heard of the additional features let alone know how to install them correctly. A good installer should at least be willing to have a conversation with their (potential) customers about the pro's and cons of brands they don't normally fit. I tend to favour Intergas personally but I'm not absolutely tied to them. That being said, I'll also happily walk away from a customer who is insisting I fit something which isn't suitable for their home.

 

[sxturbo]

Another option could be the Viessmann 200.
Very good modulation and Opentherm compliant. Works nicely with its own weather comp.
Plus a Stainless Steel heat exchanger, which supposedly maintain their efficiency much longer.
Gives you a couple of options at least.

I thought there was issues with opentherm on the veissman 200 boiler?

Atag is another one which people seem to rate highly, but it doesn't modulate as well as the intergas xclusive.

 

[muggles]

I thought there was issues with opentherm on the veissman 200 boiler?

Atag is another one which people seem to rate highly, but it doesn't modulate as well as the intergas xclusive.

The 200 isn't OT as standard, an additional module is required for about another £150. Good boiler though.

I've never been able to get all that excited about ATAG, they're quite expensive for what they are. They were popular when they first came out for their internal flue gas heat recovery system, which gives very slightly improved hot water performance, but that's their USP really

 

[MJN]

The Xclusive will modulate down to 3.6kW, a significant improvement over the 6.1 on the SB (although the SB can be made to go a bit lower than 6.1, but not much).

Ah, yes, of course. Sorry - I was mixing up my numbers and forgetting it was the SB with the highish low output despite stating so myself. Right, it does seem a better option and puts Intergas back in the game on that front, and they do seem to push their Opentherm compatibility which can only be a good sign.

If I'd read the brochure correctly, can the Xclusive operate as a combi boiler? I only ask as whilst we've currently got an unvented cylinder (150L Range Tribune) I've seen a couple of them here on the estate on people's driveways and whilst I don't know why they were being replaced it has made me think that that too won't last forever and that won't be cheap. Should that day come I am wondering if we could consider operating in combi mode (with the right system changes of course) as we're only a family of three and could get by with one (had a WB 24CDi in a previous house which did the two of us fairly well for many years). That said, it might mean infinitely-long showers when our daughter gets to that age so perhaps a finite-limit cylinder would pay for itself many times over!

WB installers are ten a penny but nine of those are WB installers because they're easy to sell. Their installer loyalty scheme is based on how many boilers they fit in a year rather than any kind of quality or technical knowledge.

Yeah, and that's very off putting. I want someone to have a preference based on their knowledge and confidence in the brand and the models on offer. Technical and operational reasons, not money (which I accept comes into it, but I don't want it to be the main driver - it's not for me as a customer (within reason!)).

 

[sxturbo]

Thanks @muggles - most useful. Could you elaborate on the 'better modulation' aspect of the Xclusive 24?

Regarding installers, I've been making an assumption that it wouldn't be a good idea to be force a manufacturer selection on an installer but rather part of my selection criteria should be what manufacturer(s) they've aligned themselves too. I am thinking in terms of them knowing the nuances of particular boilers, particularly something like an Intergas which by all accounts aren't short of hidden features that don't quite make it into the UK documentation sets. On that basis whilst WB installer are ten-a-penny I am not seeing anywhere near as much choice when it comes to Intergas.

Decent installers are hard to find, especially the likes of muggles. I was lucky and had someone local to me.who was recommended on here.

I've had opentherm controls fitted at the same time as my intergas and it's made the house much more comfortable to live in, my energy bills have been reduced, 10% less than with our previous baxi boiler with old on off thermostat.

The nice thing is the rads are never too hot to touch so little ones don't get scolded. The most our rads ever seem to get it is around 55 degrees. But even that's rare.

I'm an advocate of opentherm, my only wish is that opentherm done a better job of promoting itself and of enforcing the minimum protocol requirements.

For instance baxi use opentherm on their 600 boiler, but aftermarket opentherm products don't work because the baxi requires an extra packet of information that only their proprietary controls send.

 

[sxturbo]

Ah, yes, of course. Sorry - I was mixing up my numbers and forgetting it was the SB with the highish low output despite stating so myself. Right, it does seem a better option and puts Intergas back in the game on that front, and they do seem to push their Opentherm compatibility which can only be a good sign.

If I'd read the brochure correctly, can the Xclusive operate as a combi boiler? I only ask as whilst we've currently got an unvented cylinder (150L Range Tribune) I've seen a couple of them here on the estate on people's driveways and whilst I don't know why they were being replaced it has made me think that that too won't last forever and that won't be cheap. Should that day come I am wondering if we could consider operating in combi mode (with the right system changes of course) as we're only a family of three and could get by with one (had a WB 24CDi in a previous house which did the two of us fairly well for many years). That said, it might mean infinitely-long showers when our daughter gets to that age so perhaps a finite-limit cylinder would pay for itself many times over!



Yeah, and that's very off putting. I want someone to have a preference based on their knowledge and confidence in the brand and the models on offer. Technical and operational reasons, not money (which I accept comes into it, but I don't want it to be the main driver - it's not for me as a customer (within reason!)).

That's another usp of intergas the flexibility they have.

I think navien boilers are the other one that you can use as either or via a setting within the control panel. (I don't know. Much about navien and I don't see many people raving about them either)

 

[muggles]

Yes, the Xclusive can be either system or combi. The early Tribune cylinders suffered from coil resonance which could get quite loud, so some might be being replaced for that. Could equally be conversions to combi boilers to make use of the space in the cylinder cupboard, or increases in capacity.

Installer loyalty/accreditation schemes are a bit of a mixed bag from a customer point of view. As mentioned, WB are based on number of boxes on a wall in a year. I'm a Vaillant Advance installer because I spent 2 minutes filling a form in online. I've never fitted one. Baxi do special offer periods where they pay their Works installers £100 for each boiler registered, which just means their boilers are £100 overpriced in my eyes. Viessmann actually require proper training and technical knowledge at their training centre in Telford. Intergas require 70% of boilers fitted in a year to be Intergas boilers in order to remain on their MiTECH list and registered on their website. Their rewards scheme isn't super generous - one boiler fitted gets you a polo shirt or a work mat, three and you get a system filter, 12 and you get a free Rapid, think it's now 20 to get a free Xclusive but I've never reached those lofty heights

 

[MJN]

Decent installers are hard to find, especially the likes of muggles.

I actually thought you *were* an installer! Take that as a compliment, I think!

I was lucky and had someone local to me.who was recommended on here.

I have previously received a recommendation from an installer on here about another Intergs installer local(ish) to me so hopefully I'd be in the same boat if I went down that route.

I've had opentherm controls fitted at the same time as my intergas and it's made the house much more comfortable to live in, my energy bills have been reduced, 10% less than with our previous baxi boiler with old on off thermostat.

That's good to hear - thanks. As I said, I've been very pleased with the TPI functionality of Honeywell controls so I might perhaps not see quite so much an improvement with Opentherm but surely I'd see something in some way, shape or form. Speaking of which...

The nice thing is the rads are never too hot to touch so little ones don't get scolded. The most our rads ever seem to get it is around 55 degrees. But even that's rare.

Yes, that's a bonus (got a 4yr old daughter). And of course lower flow temperatures will give rise to greater condensing efficiencies too.

For instance baxi use opentherm on their 600 boiler, but aftermarket opentherm products don't work because the baxi requires an extra packet of information that only their proprietary controls send.

Open standards implemented in proprietary ways. You couldn't make it up could you?

 

[MJN]

Yes, the Xclusive can be either system or combi. The early Tribune cylinders suffered from coil resonance which could get quite loud, so some might be being replaced for that. Could equally be conversions to combi boilers to make use of the space in the cylinder cupboard, or increases in capacity.

Okay, that's good to know.

Re the cylinder I wondered if it might be scaling related too as we're in quite a hard water area here.

think it's now 20 to get a free Xclusive but I've never reached those lofty heights

Well, if you enlarged your coverage map to include North Wiltshire maybe you could! I could even sort out a t-shirt with the DIYnot logo on the front (and something about Worcester Bosch on the back)

 

[sxturbo]

. Intergas require 70% of boilers fitted in a year to be Intergas boilers in order to remain on their MiTECH list and registered on their website. Their rewards scheme isn't super generous - one boiler fitted gets you a polo shirt or a work mat, three and you get a system filter, 12 and you get a free Rapid, think it's now 20 to get a free Xclusive but I've never reached those lofty heights

Ha ha, my guy said the same thing, says he's to good at fixing boilers instead