oven on a socket

[adli100]

i'm having an argument with a friend with regards to a kitchen installation i am in the process of installing.
The point is that i am going to power up a cooker with a socket that is situated high level on a cupboard.
My friend says the regs state that ovens HAVE to be on there own cooker/oven supply and isolated with a cooker point.
But as it is only a 3kw oven and i am sure that legally i am able to connect it to a switched socket. i know its not ideal but in this situation a cooker point is not possible and the oven is on a complete ring and correctly fused in the plug top.He also says that i have to connect the gas hob ignition to a cooker point also but that i am sure is wrong!!!!!!! this is also going on to a low level socket controlled by a high level switched spur...
I'd be interested to know what you all think about this situation i am in.


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[GaryMo]

Cookers, ovens and hobs with a power rating that exceeds 2kW should be supplied from a dedicated radial circuit.
This would go towards achieving compliance with 433.1.5

Is it a cooker or oven you're installing?
Would there be a need for emergency isolation?

 

[adli100]

the oven is an integrated one i think it is 2.6 kw and i was going to put it on to a socket located above the unit fixed to the side in a surface mounted box.
the problem i got is that i am unable to put a bigger board in and i don't have another spare way also it in an artex ceiling so am unable to get a new supply to the kitchen also there is a fixed tile floor above and i cant get along the external wall.
have to have a sleep on this problem and tackle it tomorrow!!!!!!

 

[adli100]

thinking about it this oven comes with a 13 amp plug and lead so is it not classed as a non fixed appliance????
in theory if i was to install the sockets and leave it at that. In theory the kitchen installer by plugging in the oven is doing something that is a non notifiable action...am i not correct as all i will be doing is issuing certification for the circuit within the kitchen that has been extended.

 

[pbar]

As far as I'm aware it's perfectly normal, and common, for a single oven to simply be plugged in to a standard 13amp plug socket. As you mention, plenty of single ovens come prepared with cable and plug. Plugs in, just like your kettle, which quite likely is a similar wattage.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Just so long as it can be easily unplugged/isolated

 

[pbar]

Just so long as it can be easily unplugged/isolated

What are the restrictions as regards to this?
For example does the plug socket have to be above the worktop. My kitchen is a few years old, and the fitter put the sockets under the worktop, the one for the oven for example, is behind a drawer. A section of the back of the carcass which holds the draws was cut away to allow access. So, you remove a drawer near the top and you can see the sockets there, easy to get at , but hidden from view.
There's a double for the washer and gas hob igniter and a single for the oven.

 

[NewOrder]

It is common sense, if there is a fault and somebody is being electricuted they need to be able to isolated it in seconds, which means the plug must be accessible and not headen behind the cooker etc.

Would you want your kettle to be plugged in in a hidden location?

 

[pbar]

It is common sense, if there is a fault and somebody is being electricuted they need to be able to isolated it in seconds, which means the plug must be accessible and not headen behind the cooker etc.

Would you want your kettle to be plugged in in a hidden location?

Yes, I understand that thanks, and no, I wouldn't plug a kettle in where it was awkward, although that's different anyway as that's more likely to be turned off/on at the socket more frequently. Several times a day in fact, as I don't know of anyone who frequently cuts the power to their main kitchen appliances, dishwashers, ovens, etc on a frequent basis.

My question was more directed at the pros on here, as regards to the regs with under worktop sockets and the scenario which I have.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

thinking about it this oven comes with a 13 amp plug and lead so is it not classed as a non fixed appliance????

Is the oven designed to be fastened to a support or otherwise secured in a specific location?

 

[FingRinal]

thinking about it this oven comes with a 13 amp plug and lead so is it not classed as a non fixed appliance????

Is the oven designed to be fastened to a support or otherwise secured in a specific location?

Lots of things are designed with an option for fixed mounting but that does not mean that they must be mounted that way.

A more pertinent question would be to ask what the installation manual says. If it says that the item must be fixed in a certain way, then it must be fixed in a certain way. If it says that there are options, then there are options.

 

[ericmark]

Looking at Table 53.2 there are three forms of disconnection.
Functional Switching
Emergency Switching
Isolation
Functional switching will be under load and the all cooker rings etc should be switched off before it is either unplugged or switched off at the wall so we are looking at two types.
Emergency Switching
Isolation
No plug and socket arrangement is allowed for emergency switching so there is no difference if a plug and socket is behind a draw to being readily accessible as in neither case is it for emergency switching.
If the device is for emergency switching it will be a switch whether this is a 20 amp switch feeding a socket or a switched fused connection unit or a full blown cooker switch.
The only point is one should be able to see an isolation from operators position so crawling to the back of a cupboard to isolate may not comply although in real terms one is being rather pedantic in considering this. The whole idea is no one can switch it back on while your working on it without you seeing and I think you would notice someone crawling to the back of the cupboard! Putting a lock on the cupboard would make it comply if you really want to go to those lengths.
I will agree that with a cooker switch one does consider the placing so with chip pan fires etc it can be isolated and one would expect to find the isolator within 3 meters of the cooker but there have been a lot of changes since the 15th Edition where this was documented in that switches are now normally at the front and eye level grills with switches at eye level have in the main gone so the need for emergency switching with the isolator has reduced. I have not seen a chip pan to go on a hob in years.
And my kettle plug is hidden behind the microwave and I see no problem with that when using a cordless kettle as to isolate one only has to lift it off its base.
I think one needs to think less of rules and more about common sense. Switches and plugs close enough to reach but far enough away so if something goes wrong you can get to it. If a weight falls off a washing machine and its dancing across the floor it is no good having plug or switch directly behind it yet that’s where builder placed mine?
Eric

 

[pbar]

Looking at Table 53.2 there are three forms of disconnection.
Functional Switching
Emergency Switching
Isolation
Functional switching will be under load and the all cooker rings etc should be switched off before it is either unplugged or switched off at the wall so we are looking at two types.
Emergency Switching
Isolation
No plug and socket arrangement is allowed for emergency switching so there is no difference if a plug and socket is behind a draw to being readily accessible as in neither case is it for emergency switching.
If the device is for emergency switching it will be a switch whether this is a 20 amp switch feeding a socket or a switched fused connection unit or a full blown cooker switch.
The only point is one should be able to see an isolation from operators position so crawling to the back of a cupboard to isolate may not comply although in real terms one is being rather pedantic in considering this. The whole idea is no one can switch it back on while your working on it without you seeing and I think you would notice someone crawling to the back of the cupboard! Putting a lock on the cupboard would make it comply if you really want to go to those lengths.
I will agree that with a cooker switch one does consider the placing so with chip pan fires etc it can be isolated and one would expect to find the isolator within 3 meters of the cooker but there have been a lot of changes since the 15th Edition where this was documented in that switches are now normally at the front and eye level grills with switches at eye level have in the main gone so the need for emergency switching with the isolator has reduced. I have not seen a chip pan to go on a hob in years.
And my kettle plug is hidden behind the microwave and I see no problem with that when using a cordless kettle as to isolate one only has to lift it off its base.
I think one needs to think less of rules and more about common sense. Switches and plugs close enough to reach but far enough away so if something goes wrong you can get to it. If a weight falls off a washing machine and its dancing across the floor it is no good having plug or switch directly behind it yet that’s where builder placed mine?
Eric

Thanks for your interesting, full and sensible reply. You make a lot of sense.
And I pretty much totally agree.
Consider this though - a 13amp plug socket for use with the cooker (for example) sited under the worktop behind drawers or a cupboard (for example), but accessible - is this strictly within regs or not. Yes or no. Or is it not that simple.

 

[ericmark]

As one starts to read through the regulations one soon comes across the following:-
132.12 Accessibility of electrical equipment
Electrical equipment shall be arranged so as to afford as may be necessary:
(i) Sufficient space for the initial installation and later replacement of individual items of electrical equipment
(ii) accessibility for operation, inspection, testing, fault detection, maintenance and repair.
132.15.1 Effective means, suitably placed for ready operation, shall be provided so that all voltage may be cut off from every installation, from every circuit thereof and from all equipment, as may be necessary to prevent or remove danger.
And that’s only page 19 if one continues reading I am sure one can find many more bits which can be quoted to show you are not complying.
I would think if you really hunt you can find something wrong with every installation one looks at which is why I said one needs some common sense.
And I am sure you can see from the above quotes some interpretation is also required.
Consider a cupboard build specially for an oven it would make sense to use a 13 amp socket to feed the cooker placed in the back of the cupboard so it can be easy replaced but also a switch feeding this socket so it can be isolated before it is with drawn. But if the consumer unit was on the wall 3 meters way then using the MCB in consumer unit would do same job so a switch as well would be pointless. An access hatch in the side of the cupboard may allow one to unplug before you start to with draw the oven already I have given three alternatives all which could be seen as complying with the regulations.
As a result “could” or “may be” are the words rather than “must”.
In industry we use method statements and risk assessments where we have to write a report so show we have thought about the task ahead and taken reasonable precautions to prevent danger. Often in the writing we see errors and correct things but the writing of it all down itself does not make it safe it is being forced to think about it that helps make it safe. In the same way as what we are doing here in the forum it makes you think about what you are doing.
I do think there are times to quote regulations but in the main one should consider why the regulation is there and follow the aim of the regulation rather than the letter.
Eric

 

[pbar]

Thanks very much, and well said.
I think you're dead right in that you could find something wrong in almost all kitchens if you really wanted to.
Come to think of it, every kitchen I've been in that I can think of, friends, family, etc., everyone, has their large appliances plugged in under the worktop, with no visible obvious sign of the sockets and no other means of isolation, other than within the meter cupboard. And I for one wouldn't have a clue how to turn off those appliances, without crawling around close to them looking for the sockets.