Part P query.

[JulieL/B]

If the socket outlet has been installed and signed off by BC IMO your contractors advise is correct.

The socket outlet was part of a complete re-wire and was signed off by building control at the time.

It's the same part P and NIECE registered installer who came back to look at the pond who said to just use the 13 amp socket outlet. He said it was already protected by the required RCD in the CU.

Before he came back I was ready to pay him to do any required work but he's a really genuine guy and said I would be wasting my money to do so.

 

[GaryMo]

Why do you say that GaryMo?

I have,
12v submerged lights, 12v deck lights, 240v pump for a fountain and another 240v pump for a filter system.
Power for these items is distributed through one of these.
http://www.blagdonthepondmasters.co.uk/objects/pdf/Blagdon_2006_switchboxes_connectors.pdf
The switchbox and transformers are inside a conservatory/greenhouse which is dry. The 240v cables are just under 3M long and there are no joints of any description outside the building. There is a vacant 13 amp socket next to the switchbox.

Cables have been terminated into the blagdon switch box (assumption by looking at the above pdf). Fixed lights have been fitted into decking.
It's not a complete plug and play prefabricated kit, it's a kit that's been put together with various bits.

Page 4 www.eaststaffsbc.gov.uk/downloads/building_control/guides/1staprilPARTPapril2006finalleaflet.doc

I am intending to install a garden pond with a electric pump does this require Building Regulation Approval?

Answer: Yes if you are providing a fixed installation, as outdoor power installations are ‘special installations’. Any new work in the garden or that involves crossing the garden is notifiable. RCB protection should be provided. (Alternatively, see Competent Persons Scheme advice).

NOTE - The installation of prefabricated, “modular” systems (for example armoured garden cabling) linked by plug and socket connectors is not notifiable, provided that products are CE-marked and that any final connections in kitchens and special locations are made to existing connection units or points (possibly a 13A socket outlet).

 

[breezer]

Answer: Yes if you are providing a fixed installation, as outdoor power installations are ‘special installations’. Any new work in the garden or that involves crossing the garden is notifiable. RCB protection should be provided. (Alternatively, see Competent Persons Scheme advice).

what is an RCB?

and from a practical POV no one is really going to do it.

Being as "modular" is NOT part P most (not all ) pond pumps come with a fitted plug, you could then plug it in and say its modularsince it fits in with the UV module your pond requires.

They, the makers can put what notes they like on a box, doesn't mean anyone is going to read it.
Lat week i was in b & Q a couple were looking for bathroom lights, saw the sign that says suitable for zone, one said to the other what is zone?
all the zones and a diagram were printed on the back of the box

 

[GaryMo]

Answer: Yes if you are providing a fixed installation, as outdoor power installations are ‘special installations’. Any new work in the garden or that involves crossing the garden is notifiable. RCB protection should be provided. (Alternatively, see Competent Persons Scheme advice).

what is an RCB?

and from a practical POV no one is really going to do it.

One would assume it was supposed to be RCD and if nobody does it then they're in breech of a statutory document.

 

[breezer]

i realise it was meant to be rcd, it was being anal about it, but my point is if they get that wrong, what else is wrong?, and who is really going to get a pond pump installation "inspected" no one is.

ever wathed ground force?

a certain presenter always showed the pond pump cable being pulled in through a garden hose "to protect the pump cable"

people will do what they see on TV

 

[GaryMo]

Its a letter they got wrong, easy done though it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to get wording wrong.
The point i'm making is that prior notification is required in this instance though I realise that the majority will break the law.
Ignoring a statutory document isn't advice that should be given to general diy'ers.

 

[JulieL/B]

Cables have been terminated into the blagdon switch box (assumption by looking at the above pdf). Fixed lights have been fitted into decking.
It's not a complete plug and play prefabricated kit, it's a kit that's been put together with various bits.

The installation of prefabricated, “modular” systems (for example armoured garden cabling) linked by plug and socket connectors is not notifiable, provided that products are CE-marked and that any final connections in kitchens and special locations are made to existing connection units or points (possibly a 13A socket outlet).

I'm not trying to nitpick with you personally in anyway here GaryMo, I'm just trying to get it straight in my head

The second quote(I do realise it wasn't of your own hand) says that pre-fabricated units aren't notifiable, providing that if you are terminating in a kitchen or a special location you use an existing connection point, possibly a 13 amp socket.

I read this (rightly or wrongly) to mean that when you are using prefab units and terminating in area's other than kitchens or special locations, then your connection doesn't have to be an existing outlet. Given that a conservatory isn't a special location, surely one can terminate into a new and suitably protected switchbox?

 

[GaryMo]

I'm not trying to nitpick with you personally in anyway here GaryMo, I'm just trying to get it straight in my head

No problem at all

They're getting at a kitchen being a special location and that by using a CE marked prefabricated kit, you wouldn't require pre notification if you plug into an existing 13A socket. Adding a socket for the newly installed prefabricated kit would then require notification.

Terminating a CE marked prefabricated kit in a dining room, for example, wouldn't require notification if you use an existing socket or install an extra socket purely for the kit.

Using bits of kit to make your own kit would require notification. You would need to use a CE marked prefabricated kit for notification not to apply.

 

[breezer]

i have to dissagre with the prefabricated bit (i would wouldnt i)

there are available quite a few "have this light and that transformer" kits available.

although most will "mix and match" assuming you didnt and you buy transformer and light from same brand, you have to assemble them yourself, which is the whole idea since you could for example put a light at 10 feet from the trnsformer and another at 22 feet from the transformer.

these are not as you mention "prefabricated" since its your choice where it goes on the supply cable.

so you are saying that a kit that can be brought for £40 you are going to have to get it checked or installed by an electrician who has part p

i dont think so

oh, the kits, clicky

other choose what you like kits are available

 

[GaryMo]

Breezer, if by putting a kit together yourself means terminating cables into specific weatherproof junction boxes etc then it's notifiable. How can it not be?
It wouldn't be any different to buying a roll of cable, 10 lights, a transformer and connecting them all together.
Surely the idea behind a prefab kit is that it just plugs together requiring no electrical experience.
You may not agree with that but any less and your not complying with a statutory document.

 

[breezer]

Breezer, if by putting a kit together yourself means terminating cables into specific weatherproof junction boxes etc then it's notifiable. How can it not be?

the kit i saw has no junction boxes, i never said it did.

It wouldn't be any different to buying a roll of cable, 10 lights, a transformer and connecting them all together.
Surely the idea behind a prefab kit is that it just plugs together requiring no electrical experience.
You may not agree with that but any less and your not complying with a statutory document.

the word that i do not agree with is "prefab"

yes the kits are meant for mr average, but it still requires assembly

like wise some one could bu y an aradillo kit and plug a light into that

its not prfabricated since they brought the light to plug into it and cable, plug and lamp, but as its supplied by an armadillo kit you dont think any one will really go to the bother of getting it checked do you. no point.
the cost of having it checked is more than the kit

 

[Spark123]

Just because nobody bothers doesn't alter the fact that installing an outdoor lighting kit which isn't a "pre-fabricated equipment sets and associated flexible leads with integral plug and socket connections" is a notifiable activity.
Found this on the B&Q website too: clicky. doesn't even distinguish between prefab kits and DIY ones.

 

[GaryMo]

I take a prefabricated kit to consist of a number of items, each connected together by a plug and socket arrangement which has already been terminated.
Yes, it requires assembly but how had can it be inserting a plug into a socket? For this reason, notification isn't required.

Prefabricated - Constructed, as building components, in a factory prior to being erected or installed on site.

I would also expect the kit as a whole to be CE marked. By using something that's not been supplied with the kit or altering the kit in any way, shape or form would invalidate it's condition to be installed without notification.

Why can this be so hard to understand?

 

[JulieL/B]

Terminating a CE marked prefabricated kit in a dining room, for example, wouldn't require notification if you use an existing socket or install an extra socket purely for the kit.

Using bits of kit to make your own kit would require notification. You would need to use a CE marked prefabricated kit for notification not to apply.

So because I wanted to wire these lights through a switchbox, which didn't come as part of the kit, it becomes notifiable irrespective of where its fitted because its no longer prefabricated?

Taking this one step further and staying in the dining room, if one dispensed with the switchbox altogether and used one of those short 13amp x 4 extention leads(as often used behind computers and TV's etc)and 4x13amp plugs instead, one hasn't altered the prefab nature of the kit so doesn't have to notify?

Is that what the regs are saying? is it just the switchbox that creates a problem?

For the record I have these lights
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/73996...Deck-Light-Kit-LED-Blue-30mm-IP67-Pack-of-10#
To me they are prefabricated as all the cables are made up for you an only need plugging together.

I only wanted a switchbox because it looks much neater and more professional.