Part P - kitchen DIY

[ClockPie]

Hi

Just looking for regulation/rules/process clarity.

My kitchen was installed by "experts" about 7 years ago and signed off Part P, new consumer unit etc.

I'm ripping the lot out and want to make some changes to the electrics, and I'd say I'm DIY competent enough and it won't be a bodge. (assume for the sake of responses I am not a muppet) I thought Part P would prevent this, but the 2013 regs seem to say DIY is okay and non notifiable for what I want to do.

I intend to:-
- use existing ring, and simply move a couple of sockets, add a couple more.
- Add electric underfoor heating via fused spur
- Move cooker socket/outlet (already on dedicated/new consumer circuit)
- Install 240v LED down lighters, and 12v shelf lights off fused spur linked to lights. (via transformer obviously!)
- All cables will be recessed in trunking and of correct size/spec
- I do not intend to touch the consumer unit (from a wiring perspective)
- I will not be overloading or getting close to any circuit limits

The old regs said this was notifiable as its in the kitchen.

The new regs (aka http://www.eca.co.uk/filelibrary/download/?fileid=2133 ) say this is "Minor works (extension and modifications to circuits" and not notifiable, but if done by a company then BS 7671 needs to be completed. It also says BS 7671 requirements are nonstatutory and will remain so

It says for DIY notifiable work..... (not relevant)


But its unclear (to me) what DIY non-notifiable work needs?


Can I just do it, keep to standards, but not worry about any paperwork? I read it that I can.

Thanks

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

All electrical work must comply to part p of the building regs, whether notifiable or not!

Under part p, you as the installer have a responsibility to undertake and complete your work, so it is reasonably safe, reasonably safe meaning in compliance to wiring regulations such as BS7671.

As you quite rightly say, notification for work that is considered minor, no longer requires notifying in England. But that does not mean it should not be inspected, tested and certificated using the process within guidance note 3.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

But its unclear (to me) what DIY non-notifiable work needs?

It needs to be safe and compliant!

Can I just do it, keep to standards, but not worry about any paperwork?

The standards will request inspection, testing and certification is undertaken and an understanding of what you have documented is also required.

I read it that I can.

Where?

 

[ClockPie]

All electrical work must comply to part p of the building regs, whether notifiable or not!

Under part p, you as the installer have a responsibility to undertake and complete your work, so it is reasonably safe, reasonably safe meaning in compliance to wiring regulations such as BS7671.

As you quite rightly say, notification for work that is considered minor, no longer requires notifying in England. But that does not mean it should not be inspected, tested and certificated using the process within guidance note 3.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

In your last paragraph, you use the word "should" - not "must". Does that mean its not mandatory? (If it is mandatory, are you saying that every time anyone does any minor work (changing face plate, adding a socket) has to be inspected, tested and certificated)?

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Should (used to indicate obligation, duty, or correctness)
or must! What is the difference?

 

[ClockPie]

But its unclear (to me) what DIY non-notifiable work needs?

It needs to be safe and compliant!

Can I just do it, keep to standards, but not worry about any paperwork?

The standards will request inspection, testing and certification is undertaken and an understanding of what you have documented is also required.

I read it that I can.

Where?

Thanks for your reply.

By "I read it that I can", I mean "I don't see where it says I cant".

For instance, I understand it that just adding a socket is simple enough (if done correctly, obviously) - and no longer needs any certification/sign off. Agree it needs to comply and be safe (correct wiring, wiring routes, installation location etc)

So I'm not understanding your reply or the previous, as to what the process is for a DIYer - just do it - or paperwork/external sign off required?


If even a minor change requires paperwork, sign off, 3rd party testing etc (e.g. not JFDI DIY ) - then where is the limit of the JFDI DIY scope documented as to when it becomes "paperwork/formal" ? e.g. changing lightbulb / light fitting / face plate / spur etc? I read the 2013 rules as moving this line to allow MINOR kitchen works to the JFDI DIY scope whereas prior to this it wasn't.


(I hope I've come across okay, I'm seeing clarity/facts and understanding - not seeking to argue for the sake of)

 

[ClockPie]

Should or must! What is the difference?

Quite a lot


e.g. You should have your car brakes installed by a qualified mechanic.

This means:-
- if you are a competent DIYer you can change them yourself.
- You can ignore the advice and not brake any laws

e.g. You MUST have your car brakes installed by a qualified mechanic.

This means:-
- You are not permitted to DIY


In your paragraph, "must" would imply there is a law that says you must. "should" implies its advisable but not mandatory.



(Again, not looking to argue, seeking to understand, see the black & white guides as to what the rules are and follow them etc).

 

[JohnW2]

In your last paragraph, you use the word "should" - not "must". Does that mean its not mandatory? (If it is mandatory, are you saying that every time anyone does any minor work (changing face plate, adding a socket) has to be inspected, tested and certificated)?

Despite what very commonly happens in practice, the strict answer is effectively "must". BS7671 requires the "inspection, testing and certification" and, for virtually everyone, the only way of demonstrating compliance with part P ('the law') is to fully comply with BS7671.

Even if you ignore regulations and the law, adequate testing is important to safety (of yourself and others). If you are competent to do the work, and undertake the necessary testing, you can issue your own certificates - the required forms are feely available on-line.

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Please read and take special notice of highlighted text.

Minor works

The Building Regulations allow certain minor works (known as non-notifiable work) to be carried out without having to notify building control or use a registered electrician.

In England, the rules were simplified in April 2013, so that now regulation 12(6A) of the Building Regulations 2010 identifies notifiable work as comprising the installation of a new or replacement consumer unit, the installation of a complete new circuit connected to the consumer unit, or alteration work in and around a bath or shower.

All other work is non-notifiable although, like notifiable work, it should be designed and installed, and inspected, tested and certificated in accordance with BS 7671. If local authorities find that non-notifiable work is unsafe and non-compliant, they can take enforcement action.
For Wales, the Building Regulations still identify non-notifiable work as including:

any repair or maintenance work or like-for like replacement
any addition or alteration to an existing circuit that is not in a kitchen, bathroom or outdoors
installing or upgrading main or supplementary equipotential bonding
installing extra low voltage cabling outside bathrooms for telephone, fire alarm, burglar alarm and heating systems, etc.
If you are not sure whether the work you want to undertake is notifiable, you should contact your local authority building control department for advice.

Non-notifiable electrical work can also present a risk to safety. If qualified electricians carry out the work they should give you a Minor Works Certificate, which means that they have tested the work to make sure it is safe. If you do the work yourself you may wish to engage a qualified electrician to check it for you.

Care of building controls http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/commonprojects/electrics/

 

[flameport]

Anyone can do electrical work in their home or that of someone else, no need for titles such as 'electrician' or anything else.

A few things require building control notification, but anyone can notify, just fill in the form and send the fee to your local authority. The majority of work does not require notification.

All of it must comply with P1 as above, and therefore be safe.

In order to prove it has been installed properly and is safe, it is tested, most of which is done before power is connected to it. This can be done either by the person installing it, or someone else.

If you know of another way to confirm it is safe and properly installed without testing, then carry on and do that.

 

[EFLImpudence]

By "I read it that I can", I mean "I don't see where it says I cant".

You can but for obvious reasons you must do it properly.

For instance, I understand it that just adding a socket is simple enough (if done correctly, obviously) - and no longer needs any certification/sign off. Agree it needs to comply and be safe (correct wiring, wiring routes, installation location etc)

Notification and certification are not related.

So I'm not understanding your reply or the previous, as to what the process is for a DIYer - just do it - or paperwork/external sign off required?

You should (no one will know if you don't so it can't be must) test your work to ensure it is safe.

If even a minor change requires paperwork, sign off, 3rd party testing etc (e.g. not JFDI DIY ) - then where is the limit of the JFDI DIY scope documented as to when it becomes "paperwork/formal" ? e.g. changing lightbulb / light fitting / face plate / spur etc? I read the 2013 rules as moving this line to allow MINOR kitchen works to the JFDI DIY scope whereas prior to this it wasn't.

You are again confusing Minor works and certification and notification.

(I hope I've come across okay, I'm seeing clarity/facts and understanding - not seeking to argue for the sake of)

Yes but you have been advised how to do it properly and comply with Part P of the Building Regulations (the short statement shown above).
This would include testing the circuit.

Other Building Regulations stating whether notification is required or not is nothing to do with Part P. (there is misleading terminology in guidance documents).

 

[ClockPie]

OK

Thanks for the above.

From the responses, it appears at any change to electrics needs to be formally signed off by someone who is competent in BS7671?

The bit quoted

All other work is non-notifiable although, like notifiable work, it should be designed and installed, and inspected, tested and certificated in accordance with BS 7671. If local authorities find that non-notifiable work is unsafe and non-compliant, they can take enforcement action.

Read more: //www.diynot.com/diy/threads/part-p-kitchen-diy.435639/#3395553#ixzz3biUAkzPn

Seems to say "Yeah - you should, but if you don't on your own head, and if local authorities find out they will give you a kicking".

(in jest!)


I am still confused as to the line between what is DIYable and what isn't - can't believe everyone buying a new light bulb/ light fitting/ socket in B&Q fills out a BS 7671 form or gets someone in to do it afterwards? And where is the line as to what is JDFI - changing a light bulb/face place/ moving socket/ adding socket? Is there a definitive list as to what is JFDI DIYable without any paperwork or BS 7671? I thought the list on the Part P of notifiable was this but clearly not - but it must be in black n white somewhere what is JFDI DIYable - even if it says "you can only change a lightbulb". Or not



I am fully happy with major works needing compliance, I'm not arguing any idiot can rewire a house, but adding a new socket on an existing ring isn't exactly rocket science and I can't believe that needs massive processes/sign off.

Maybe I got excited reading the new Part P and seeing MINOR kitchen work was non notifiable and assumed it was now permitted - I'll do more research.


[/b]

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Should or must! What is the difference?

Quite a lot


e.g. You should have your car brakes installed by a qualified mechanic.

This means:-
- if you are a competent DIYer you can change them yourself.
- You can ignore the advice and not brake any laws

e.g. You MUST have your car brakes installed by a qualified mechanic.

This means:-
- You are not permitted to DIY


In your paragraph, "must" would imply there is a law that says you must. "should" implies its advisable but not mandatory.



(Again, not looking to argue, seeking to understand, see the black & white guides as to what the rules are and follow them

You should is an obligation/duty. But if you want a defined definition on your tasks, in your understanding of terms. You must abide to part p, it is a legal requirement , you can prove your work is safe, by any relevant document/standard. The most relevant one to us in the UK, is BS7671.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

From the responses, it appears at any change to electrics needs to be formally signed off by someone who is competent in BS7671

Instructed or skilled electrically is the new definition.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Seems to say "Yeah - you should, but if you don't on your own head".
(in jest!)

That can be said about everything, that must not be done. If you don't get caught, who will ever know it was you!
But not something we should morally be considering in life.