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Found this yesterday on a Pat Test, but I can't decide if it fails or not? The Insulation resistance was still >20M to earth...
PAT Test Fail?
- Thread starter flyingsparks
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is that a 10A extension ?
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No I think it was rated at 13A (25m) - apparantly it was being used on a 2KW heater whilst wound up.
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The fool that passed this 4.8KW(!) glass washer would have just slapped a pass sticker on that, though he wouldn't have bothered unwinding it...
It was 'tested' by the same company who fitted those 2 poorly installed Wylex DBs I posted earlier. Yes that is 4.0mm² flex rammed into a broken 13A plug. The 20A MCB feeding the sockets ended up being continually overloaded which caused the MCB to jam, later heavier overloads then caused the MCB and DB to start melting. The MCB mechanism was totally jammed and even forcing the dolly to the off position didn't open the contacts. But don't worry, the same company passed that as well at the same time as the appliance testing.
It was 'tested' by the same company who fitted those 2 poorly installed Wylex DBs I posted earlier. Yes that is 4.0mm² flex rammed into a broken 13A plug. The 20A MCB feeding the sockets ended up being continually overloaded which caused the MCB to jam, later heavier overloads then caused the MCB and DB to start melting. The MCB mechanism was totally jammed and even forcing the dolly to the off position didn't open the contacts. But don't worry, the same company passed that as well at the same time as the appliance testing.
What make was the circuit breaker out of interest?
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Yes but they only issue a role of pre-made out pass stickers who wants to spend all that time filling in the fail ones, and anyway only got a few fail stickers need to keep them for something really bad.
In the main I only PAT tested something I had repaired, some firm normally did PAT testing, but it had be found a satellite depot had been missed so I had the chance to actually time how long it took, was dropped off and picked up so had all day, but went as quick as I could just to see.
Top of range Robin as it was then with a floppy that recorded all the data. I was filling in the book with item details while I was waiting for the tester to auto go through tests, six hours to do 30 items, I could not believe it was so slow, I expected it to take half that time, but every time I unplugged machine and moved it had to go through the whole pre-test sequence. There was nothing I could do to speed it up, there were set times for every test, with a manual machine you can record once needle is steady, but the the automatic machine it had a built in set time.
OK only 6 hours, but I had seen lists where the contractor with same machine as me had done 100 items in a 8 hour day. He simply had to have cheated that Robin would not allow you to do that many.
There may be other machines on the market where you can go faster, in fact I know there are, but in one job we had 250 items passed by one guy in one day, most being class I, OK class II and III are faster, but nearly all I was testing was class I. The point is the bosses should know he can't do that many so not only the guy testing, but his foreman is also cheating, as he knows jolly well with the tester issued he can't do that many. Only with class II and III could you do that.
But you look at the charges and they could not even get minimum wage at my 30 items in 6 hours, and that's without any on costs. How anyone can charge per item I don't know, to inspect and test one portable batching plant took 3 electricians two Sundays that's one item. OK a large bit of portable plant it came as 22 wagons. But on other jobs the shrink wrap machine was portable and that would not have been tested with a PAT testing machine. And really it does not need to be portable proper name is "Inspection and testing of in service electrical equipment" not being portable does not mean it's not tested.
But what would you do, if the only job you could find was inspecting and testing, and the dole is telling you if you don't take it dole will stop, you have wife and kids, and the new boss says 100 items per day when you have finished the day is yours, and you get 8 hours pay. That includes travel. My son did it until he could find a proper job, and now he talks about it and all he could do was a visual inspection. if it looked bad then use machine, other wise stick on a label. The skill was not getting caught out. Most would only last two to four months before some think would be found. Boss then sacked the guy, and when challenged would simply say "Yes we did have a problem with one of our testers, but he does not work for us any more." my son was one of the lucky ones, he left before anyone found anything wrong with his work, he was working 14 hours a day for 8 hours pay. In some cases more. It was after he had left he told me what was going on. I said it was illegal, his answer was yes, but other wise I had no job. You don't bite hand that feeds you.
In the main I only PAT tested something I had repaired, some firm normally did PAT testing, but it had be found a satellite depot had been missed so I had the chance to actually time how long it took, was dropped off and picked up so had all day, but went as quick as I could just to see.
Top of range Robin as it was then with a floppy that recorded all the data. I was filling in the book with item details while I was waiting for the tester to auto go through tests, six hours to do 30 items, I could not believe it was so slow, I expected it to take half that time, but every time I unplugged machine and moved it had to go through the whole pre-test sequence. There was nothing I could do to speed it up, there were set times for every test, with a manual machine you can record once needle is steady, but the the automatic machine it had a built in set time.
OK only 6 hours, but I had seen lists where the contractor with same machine as me had done 100 items in a 8 hour day. He simply had to have cheated that Robin would not allow you to do that many.
There may be other machines on the market where you can go faster, in fact I know there are, but in one job we had 250 items passed by one guy in one day, most being class I, OK class II and III are faster, but nearly all I was testing was class I. The point is the bosses should know he can't do that many so not only the guy testing, but his foreman is also cheating, as he knows jolly well with the tester issued he can't do that many. Only with class II and III could you do that.
But you look at the charges and they could not even get minimum wage at my 30 items in 6 hours, and that's without any on costs. How anyone can charge per item I don't know, to inspect and test one portable batching plant took 3 electricians two Sundays that's one item. OK a large bit of portable plant it came as 22 wagons. But on other jobs the shrink wrap machine was portable and that would not have been tested with a PAT testing machine. And really it does not need to be portable proper name is "Inspection and testing of in service electrical equipment" not being portable does not mean it's not tested.
But what would you do, if the only job you could find was inspecting and testing, and the dole is telling you if you don't take it dole will stop, you have wife and kids, and the new boss says 100 items per day when you have finished the day is yours, and you get 8 hours pay. That includes travel. My son did it until he could find a proper job, and now he talks about it and all he could do was a visual inspection. if it looked bad then use machine, other wise stick on a label. The skill was not getting caught out. Most would only last two to four months before some think would be found. Boss then sacked the guy, and when challenged would simply say "Yes we did have a problem with one of our testers, but he does not work for us any more." my son was one of the lucky ones, he left before anyone found anything wrong with his work, he was working 14 hours a day for 8 hours pay. In some cases more. It was after he had left he told me what was going on. I said it was illegal, his answer was yes, but other wise I had no job. You don't bite hand that feeds you.
The breaker was a GEC that was branded Steeple. I've just opened it for the photo and have seen the moving contact is now rotated 90° from the position it should be in! This 20A MCB had around 34A running through it when I was doing some checks. The heat was enough the melt the plastic on the front cover of the CU and the plastic had started to soften and shrink around the MCB.
I can usually rattle through the appliances fairly quickly, but to do so I have to be visually inspecting the next appliance while the last one is being auto tested, sometimes this is not possible if I have to do something to turn the appliance on for certain tests etc. I hate long extension leads as it takes ages to go through the entire length of flex looking for damage.
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My pet hate was the toilet hand drier, often easy way was to remove and test else where, or simply use the insulation tester and forget the PAT testing box.
The other problem I had was equipment moving, I would PAT test a radio in an office with the 2.5A fig of 8 lead set, which in the office was OK, then it would appear on the shop floor which was often wet and a fig of 8 lead was clearly not safe.
Bringing items into workshop was another trick, they would tell me there was not PAT test sticker, I would re-test, then find old sticker stuck to some other item which they assumed I would not pass.
Records had to be carefully kept because of the sneaky tricks, I would often record the item ID number then find last time I tested that item it was a kettle not a toaster.
The other problem I had was equipment moving, I would PAT test a radio in an office with the 2.5A fig of 8 lead set, which in the office was OK, then it would appear on the shop floor which was often wet and a fig of 8 lead was clearly not safe.
Bringing items into workshop was another trick, they would tell me there was not PAT test sticker, I would re-test, then find old sticker stuck to some other item which they assumed I would not pass.
Records had to be carefully kept because of the sneaky tricks, I would often record the item ID number then find last time I tested that item it was a kettle not a toaster.
D
Deleted member 18243
Do you have to test these, seeing as they are usually fixed to the wall and wired to a fused spur, and therefore not portable?
No.
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Although called PAT testing, correct name is "Inspection and testing of in service electrical equipment" it does not matter how big or small it is, the demarcation is between the installation which is all the wires and distribution boxes, and current using equipment.
I would go into a room and look around, any fridge or freezer I would unplug, then do the rest, then return to fridge or freezer and hope one re-powering the motor would run. It however never tested the de-frost function. A washing machine, or a vending machine was a real problem, in the main we would take out a maintenance contract and back heal those machines.
It was once a heated talk about the maintenance contract, as it seemed the people who had the contract would respond to a break down, but did not actually do any maintenance. But my boss basic said that's their problem not mine, should anyone get injured I just refer the HSE to the firm with the contract. Not sure that would really work?
But be it a massive concrete batching plant or a nose hair cutter they all need some form of inspection and testing. Well at least an inspection, in real terms items which are class II or class III can't really be tested, other than see if they work, plugging a class II appliance into the PAT tester only really tests that the current used is within limits, the rest is just inspection, so in real terms one can do a whole room of class II in super fast time. The only problem was all my tests were electronic logged. So I would test a PC which means of course I have tested the lead set as well, but then I would still have to press the button a second time and enter the ID number of the lead, even though I clearly knew it was OK.
My boss viewed hand written tests with suspicion, with hand driers I could get away with it, as no plug and socket, the same for three phase machines, as to toilet extractor fans, well what can you test? often class II and about the only test you can do is put a clamp on ammeter around the supply lead, if the ammeter will measure that little current. So he let me get away with visual inspection only for extractor fans.
Office fans were also a point of discussion, often class I however the only place you could access the earth was the motor spindle, putting 25 amp through that could damage the bearing, so although not really IT equipment they were tested as IT equipment so as not to damage the bearing. The IT equipment test uses 250 mA instead of 25A as in some cases 25A could blow the tracks on circuit boards.
We agreed that a semi-skilled guy could re-test and inspect equipment which had already been tested and the test sequence had already been selected by an electrician, except for those marked special. But he was not allowed to inspect and test the first time, after it was found a mag mount drill had been tested as class II, there was a very clear double square on the drill showing it was class II, but the mag mount was class I and the earth wire had become detached. We argued an electrician would have realised it was class I but the semi-skilled did not have enough knowledge.
We also had a problem with electronic recording, where some one forgot to put in his code and a whole days PAT testing was attributed to the wrong guy, I corrected the problem after quickly writing a VB program to read and correct the data, the Robin software would not allow it, but it back fired as it was then realised if some one made an error he could alter the computer records to show some one else had done the testing, so after that short results were printed and signed by person doing the test. They were put in a folder with the date when they could be destroyed.
As to if the HSE has ever done anyone for not doing a proper job PAT testing I don't know, I some how don't think so, it would be so hard to show it was faulty when tested. Firms have been done for not maintaining equipment, and for not keeping records, but as to saying you tested this on xx/xx/xxxx and it was clearly faulty when tested not so sure. Has been done with fixed installation, but as to portable I know of no cases.
I have seen where firms were fined for bad equipment, in fact it happened where I worked, a private extension lead was taken out of a fitters locker and used by a worker, it was laying in water and a fault on the lead caused another worker to get a shock, he was taken to hospital to be on safe side, and they auto informed HSE, who in turn fined the fitter for having the lead in his locker. Had I know about it before hand I would have put the same notice on his workshop as on mine, which stated "This is a quarantine area, the door must be kept locked when not in use, and no equipment shall be taken out of this area without permission." The HSE guy said had some one taken it out of my workshop he would be looking at person who took the lead, but since there was no notice on his workshop it was fair to consider all equipment was safe to use.
Where I have worked in a corner of the fitters workshop, the electricians part has always been fenced off because of the quarantine of electrical equipment under repair. As to how anyone can place large three phase items in the quarantine area I don't know? I expect locking off would do. However it would need to appear in the quarantine register. I would say about one in five of items being repaired actually were entered into the register. In real terms only items which could not be repaired that shift, and yes HSE has asked to view the quarantine register.
I do think those working in heavy industry seem to get many more visits than those working in the office, so I would guess those PAT testing office equipment can get away with things which those working in heavy industry would never get away with. But the fear of HSE catching one out did keep one on ones toes, and the PAT testing was taken very seriously, even with reduced low voltage.
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How can you say "No" all electrical equipment needs inspection and testing.
I wonder how many people were killed or injured by portable electrical appliances before PAT testing became a required thing, and I wonder how the figures compare afterwards.
I also wonder how the people who are (perhaps!) protected at work by all this testing get on when they go home, and, horror of horrors are exposed to the dangers of their own kettles, hairdryers, and toasters.
I also wonder how the people who are (perhaps!) protected at work by all this testing get on when they go home, and, horror of horrors are exposed to the dangers of their own kettles, hairdryers, and toasters.
Yes, "but it wasn't like that when we tested it" ……………
I had a large storeroom of cleaning quipment PAT tested recently, all passed and had test labels dated and signed off not one item had a plug fitted,
The clue is it the title, as they say. PORTABLE Appliance Testing………………
This will run for days………….
DS
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