pat testing burger van
- Thread starter burntwire
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The frequency of testing is decided by the person doing the testing according to the condition, use & environment of the equipment.
The frequency of test tables that you find in the "Guide for In-Service Inspection & Testing" and on the HSE web site are for guidance only. You need to make the final decision but i would use the comercial kitchen as a guide.
The frequency of test tables that you find in the "Guide for In-Service Inspection & Testing" and on the HSE web site are for guidance only. You need to make the final decision but i would use the comercial kitchen as a guide.
Are you just PAT testing the electrical appliances in the burger van or are you doing a full I&T of the burger van wiring as well?
What is the earthing arrangement? Is it fed from a genny? There is a bit about generators in this months Wiring Matters from the IET regarding earthing arrangements with a generator.
What is the earthing arrangement? Is it fed from a genny? There is a bit about generators in this months Wiring Matters from the IET regarding earthing arrangements with a generator.
Never really thought about this before, but .... if it's a mobile burger van, there would presumably be a bit of a problem in having any connection to true earth, wouldn't there - and I wouldn't think one could do much other than make sure that the van itself was constituted as an equipotential zone.
Kind Regards, John.
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Then cometh the problem of someone being in contact with true earth and making contact with a bonded metal part!
Another issue is with small generators which provide an electrically separate supply, they become slightly more complex where they are supplying more than one piece of equipment as earth free equipotential bonding and all pole fusing needs to be employed. Also, RCDs won't help!
Another issue is with small generators which provide an electrically separate supply, they become slightly more complex where they are supplying more than one piece of equipment as earth free equipotential bonding and all pole fusing needs to be employed. Also, RCDs won't help!
Quite, but what on earth can they do? If it's a truly mobile van (even if the one we're talking about here isn't, plenty are), they can hardly hammer in an earth rod (through the pavement?) every time they stop! It might be one of those situations in which the lesser of the evils is to not bond!
Kind Regards, John.
C
cumbriahandyman
Q not A
Generators I am told have a floating earth, what is this?
Generators I am told have a floating earth, what is this?
It is one way of earthing a generator supply - a form of 'seperation'. There is no reference to 'true' earth - i.e. no earth rod banged in - and there is no connection between the neutral of the generator windings and the casing or cable/socket earth.
This is only allowed to supply one item of Class I equipment, though, so no good for the burger van.
For supplying more than one item of Class I, the socket outlets earth and the generator frame are connected to the neutral of the windings - they are still not referenced to true earth - this gives a return fault path back to the generator.
All circuits off the generator will be protected by 30mA RCD.
This will be the case with the 'burger van'.
Hope that explains it a bit.
I don't know how the 'OP' intends to PAT a burger van - it's hardly a 'portable appliance'.
PAT the 'toaster', by all means, but the van is going to be a PIR.
I am PAT testing the appliances within a burger van, it has four wheels and an engine. I am not carrying out a PIR just a PAT test, it is powered by a generater which I havent seen, I have spoken to him about earths and RCD's to which he looks at me blankly I can only advise him 
Info on portable generators here:
http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/index.cfm
http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/index.cfm
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If the generator is part of the van then there is really no problem as whole van is a TN-S supply and without some external connection one can't alter the potential of the van in respect to any other items. Biggest problem is static.
If the generator is not part of the van and it only supplies the van and nothing else then also unlikely to be a problem.
When the problems start is when two items use the same generator. So if as well as the van a flood lamp is used then we have a problem as flood light and van may with faults have a different potential.
Same applies to bathroom shaver socket. With one item only they are safe. Two items there is a problem.
However the question is about testing the equipment within the van. And in the main that's the same as any where else with two small exceptions.
Again coming back to earthing. Is the supply single phase or split phase? Class 2 equipment is not really a problem but class 1 equipment used in UK on a 230 vac supply is designed for a single phase supply. However some generators especially those with 110 to 230 volt change over switches deliver a split phase supply. Often in 230 v mode it is 57 - 0 - 173 which would require duel switching and protective devices.
Some PAT testers will show this problem. But really to be sure you need to test.
The second problem is will the protective device work? What we want is if something goes wrong is for the protective device to open. However with small generators one can get it where the voltage is reduced on a fault which in turn reduces the current which means the protective device will not open. If it does often not in the required time.
Putting it simple a 13A fuse is unlikely to blow with a 3kVA generator. Also passive RCD's may fail to work as the voltage required to work them is not present. Latter is simple use active RCD's. That way if voltage does dip below threshold it trips anyway. This may also help with the fuse problem.
All generators are not the same. Some will burn them selves out with overload, in some the field current will die and the generator will stop producing. It depends on how they are controlled. There is really no way to be sure without testing with a real short circuit which could damage the generator. But using a loop impedance meter will give some indication of if it is likely to fail safe. So in the real world all we can do is use the loop impedance meter.
If you don't have a loop impedance meter there is one way around the problem. That is to get him to bring the items to you to test rather than test them on site. But really that's cheating.
What we have to consider is if the generator is "In service electrical equipment"? I would say it is. In which case you need to test the generator.
I would like to hear how people test the generator? That is the real question. My time with small generators was in the Falklands and Algeria and in both cases we did not really test them other then if they worked. Larger generators would be connected to a load bank and full tests made but even then there is a limit. The synchronizing software was only tested when we tried to synchronize and that was also true of many of the lesser used features. In the main all we were interested with was did it work.
So how do people do safety checks on generators. I am all ears.
If the generator is not part of the van and it only supplies the van and nothing else then also unlikely to be a problem.
When the problems start is when two items use the same generator. So if as well as the van a flood lamp is used then we have a problem as flood light and van may with faults have a different potential.
Same applies to bathroom shaver socket. With one item only they are safe. Two items there is a problem.
However the question is about testing the equipment within the van. And in the main that's the same as any where else with two small exceptions.
Again coming back to earthing. Is the supply single phase or split phase? Class 2 equipment is not really a problem but class 1 equipment used in UK on a 230 vac supply is designed for a single phase supply. However some generators especially those with 110 to 230 volt change over switches deliver a split phase supply. Often in 230 v mode it is 57 - 0 - 173 which would require duel switching and protective devices.
Some PAT testers will show this problem. But really to be sure you need to test.
The second problem is will the protective device work? What we want is if something goes wrong is for the protective device to open. However with small generators one can get it where the voltage is reduced on a fault which in turn reduces the current which means the protective device will not open. If it does often not in the required time.
Putting it simple a 13A fuse is unlikely to blow with a 3kVA generator. Also passive RCD's may fail to work as the voltage required to work them is not present. Latter is simple use active RCD's. That way if voltage does dip below threshold it trips anyway. This may also help with the fuse problem.
All generators are not the same. Some will burn them selves out with overload, in some the field current will die and the generator will stop producing. It depends on how they are controlled. There is really no way to be sure without testing with a real short circuit which could damage the generator. But using a loop impedance meter will give some indication of if it is likely to fail safe. So in the real world all we can do is use the loop impedance meter.
If you don't have a loop impedance meter there is one way around the problem. That is to get him to bring the items to you to test rather than test them on site. But really that's cheating.
What we have to consider is if the generator is "In service electrical equipment"? I would say it is. In which case you need to test the generator.
I would like to hear how people test the generator? That is the real question. My time with small generators was in the Falklands and Algeria and in both cases we did not really test them other then if they worked. Larger generators would be connected to a load bank and full tests made but even then there is a limit. The synchronizing software was only tested when we tried to synchronize and that was also true of many of the lesser used features. In the main all we were interested with was did it work.
So how do people do safety checks on generators. I am all ears.
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This is earth arrangement found on Honda generator.
It caused a small fire when the cable was damaged as the fuse was only on the 173 volt line and it was the 57 volt line that had earth fault. At the time I had not even thought of testing for this type of problem.
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RCD not fitted. It was bought with petty cash and only after the fire did I find it existed. Think they knew I would not approve so were hiding it!
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