Periodic Inspection Report

[sham]

Hi Everyone

I had a job to do a pir in Harrow on the hill this morning on a one bedroom ground floor flat, here are some pictures to show, would like some opinions on some factors regarding the installation.

1 - Sockets and spur was directly above electric hub, Owner suggested to put a blanking plate over the socket, what do you think? what she would do with the spur then?, the hob was fed from a 32A bs60898 type b, i gave that a code 2

socket and spur directly above the electric hub.

• sham
• 6 May 2010
• 1

2 - Main bonding was 6mm, Should it not be half the main earthing conductor which was 16mm, is that a code 2 or 4?
3 - Lighting in the bathroom was not an enclosed unit, agreed code 4?,
4 - No rcd in consumer unit, as it was a ground floor flat and there was a chance someone could use a extension lead for some gardening, again code 2
5 - Consumer board was part plaster in the wall, no issue. all agreed.

Untitled

• sham
• 7 May 2010
• 1

6 - Bunched circuits in a 10A bs3871 protective device, no coded agreed.

Bunched circuits

• sham
• 6 May 2010
• 1

7 - Didn't do a r1+R2 on the intercom circuit as was no protective conductor to the transformer, but listed it in the circuit chart. not sure here though.
8 - There was a redundant double socket in the hallway which some previous Electrician had repaired a burnt ring circuit and failed to realise it was there. Agreed no code with flameport.
Would appreciate some views as i am a bit rusty, Thanks to everyone in advance.
9 - In the consumer unit there are two types of protective devices, the originals are bs3871, type 2, and the addition is a bs60898 type b, which didnt completely fit on to the buss bar, is this a code 2? What are the max short circuit capacity of these breakers, are they 3KA?

Consumer unit

• sham
• 6 May 2010
• 1

10 - At the intake cupboard, the main fuse was a 60A bs1361, what type are these and what is the short circuit capacity?

2 - The earthing arrangments are TN-S, fed with 16mm main Earthing conductor.

3 - bathroom light outside Zones.

7 - Transformer was fed with twin + cpc, But could not see the cpc at the transformer.

8 - Yes the socket was dead, requires removal. agreed no code needed.

Thanks..

 

[GaryMo]

1 - Agreed - stupid place to put a hob!
2 - What's the earthing arrangements at the property? 6mm2 may be compliant.
3 - What zone is the luminaire situated in?
4 - No RCD protection at all? Including all socket outlets? If so then agreed.
5 - Not really an issue.
6 - Not really an issue. Have a read of the definition of a circuit in Chapter 2.
7 - Was the transformer fed in a 2 core cable with no CPC?
8 - Redundant socket? Is this now dead and requires removal?

 

[flameport]

Code 3 wouldn't normally be used on a domestic property - just how much 'further investigation' could be required?
Either:
- the socket is connected properly, so no code
- the socket wiring is defective, such as no CPC, so code 1
- the socket is not connected to anything, no code.

 

[SparkyNinja]

6 - Not really an issue. Have a read of the definition of a circuit in Chapter 2.

What about 314.4?



One of my most common code 4's

 

[GaryMo]

Multiple conductors originating from the same protective device count as a single circuit.

 

[SparkyNinja]

Multiple conductors originating from the same protective device count as a single circuit.

So if I combine 2 existing final circuits onto 1 mcb, I am creating 1 circuit and the circuit(s) wont need to be electrically seperated as 314.4 suggests?

 

[GaryMo]

Yes, it'll appear to be exactly that to the next person to work on it.

Have a look at the definition of 'circuit' in chapter 2.

 

[SparkyNinja]

Yes, one single circuit.

Have a look at the definition of 'circuit' in chapter 2.

I have. But I think I disagree.

To me, your opinion makes 314.4 obsolete?

Does it not?

 

[GaryMo]

I'll have a look in the morning to remind myself of that regulation.

 

[ericmark]

1, Sockets and spur was directly above electric hub, Owner suggested to put a blanking plate over the socket, what do you think? what she would do with the spur then? i gave that a code 2

Hard one I would agree as if induction hob would it really present a danger? But I would still say code 2 like yourself although not cut and dried.

2, Main bonding was 6mm, (does the 17th edition have a set size?)gave that a code 4

This would depend on supply type as with TT supply could pass so no comment here.

3, Lighting in the bathroom was not an enclosed unit, gave that code 2,

Never was enclosed in past so code 4 to me code 2 is where it has never been permitted.

4, No rcd in consumer unit, again code 2

Again code 4 as was permitted in earlier eddition

5, Consumer board was part plaster in the wall, no code

Can’t really see a problem!

6, Bunched circuits in a 10A bs3871 protective device, coded 4

I was always taught one hole one wire but in domestic that is not really an option as every ring main has two cables per MCB so hard to justify coding this! I am aware of 314.4 but that really does not make any sense as a ring main with one socket connected directly to MCB as a spur is permitted as shown in chart back of book. I would consider 314.4 as gobbledygook?

7, didn't do a r1+R2 on the intercom circuit as was no protective conductor to the transformer, but listed it in the circuit chart. not sure here though.
8, There was a redundant double socket in the hallway which some previous Electrician had repaired a burnt ring circuit and failed to realise it was there. Agreed no code with flameport.
Would appreciate some views as i am a bit rusty, Thanks to everyone in advance.

Thanks Gary for your quick reply,

2 - The earthing arrangments are TN-S, fed with 16mm main Earthing conductor.
So 6mm is code 2.
3 - Outside Zones, so thats okay.

7 - Transformer was fed with twin + cpc, But could not see the cpc at the transformer.

8 - Yes the socket was dead, requires removal. is code 3 suffice?

Thanks..

8 - the socket is not connected to anything, no code. sounds right.

Thanks flameport.

What you failed to talk about was the type tested CU had what seems to be mixture of types and unless manufacturer permits mix it would be code 2. If a socket is disconnected is it an electrical item? Do you have to remove any sockets from your tool box because they are not connected? I would agree there could be a problem if socket was metal.

Personally I think the removal of common sense should prevail in wiring regulations was a mistake and at end of the day you have to consider if really dangerous.
The Code 4 is often a problem as some consider if allowed in any edition of wiring regulations then code 4, others will consider it only to go back to when made into BS7671 so pre-16 Edition does not count and yet others say it states previous edition and that was BS7671:2001 so pre- BS7671:2001 fails. I would tend also to consider pre- BS7671:2001 is code 2 rather than code 4 but again some common sense.

What I think we must realise is that if a PIR is full of code 2’s then likely non will get corrected but if we only include a few code 2’s then they are likely to be repaired so where there is a lot wrong you need to lean towards code 4’s so to ensure code 2’s are repaired.

Converse to that it is your provisional indemnity insurance at risk and you may consider especially if rented or to be sold that if in unsure code 2. On here we can give our thoughts but at end of the day you must make the call.

 

[SparkyNinja]

6, Bunched circuits in a 10A bs3871 protective device, coded 4

I was always taught one hole one wire but in domestic that is not really an option as every ring main has two cables per MCB so hard to justify coding this! I am aware of 314.4 but that really does not make any sense as a ring main with one socket connected directly to MCB as a spur is permitted as shown in chart back of book. I would consider 314.4 as gobbledygook?

Could it not be deemed possible to consider that a ring does not apply in this way. In that it is a returning cable and so the two runs from the mcb are not electrically seperated when disconnected?

 

[GaryMo]

A circuit as per definitions is:

Circuit - An assembly of electrical equipment supplied from the same origin and protected against overcurrent by the same protective device(s).

So, for example; two twin sockets, each one fed by one single 2.5mm2 t&e with both t&e's connected to a B20 MCB - that's one circuit by design.

How can 314.1 come into play?

314.4 - Where an installation comprises more than one final circuit, each final circuit shall be connected to a separate way in a distribution board. The wiring of each final circuit shall be electrically separate from that of every other final circuit, so as to prevent the indirect energizing of a final circuit intended to be isolated.

By design, it's one final circuit and completely seperate to other circuits that share the same consumer unit.
I would think it comes down the the designer of the circuit to what constitutes a circuit. It's not unreasonable to supply lighting to a newly added downstairs toilet from the same MCB as the rest of the downstairs lighting if the consumer unit is at full capacity. That doesn't then become two circuits sharing one MCB but one circuit.

One example I can think of for 314.4 is when an idiot (and I've seen it done) connects each end of a ring final to a B20 MCB so that you need to isolate both MCB's for complete isolation of that circuit.

 

[ricicle]

To the OP:-

Why are you doing a professional PIR when you are not familiar with the bonding requirements of the 17th edition ?

 

[ericmark]

Thanks GaryMo I was trying to think of where 314.4 would be cited.
As to circuit it seems Part P regard it different to BS7671 as using a FCU under BS7671 means new circuit but not it seems with Part P it has to come from the type tested distribution unit called a consumer unit to be called a new circuit.

 

[GaryMo]

As to circuit it seems Part P regard it different to BS7671 as using a FCU under BS7671 means new circuit but not it seems with Part P it has to come from the type tested distribution unit called a consumer unit to be called a new circuit.

Imagine a FCU with a 3A fuse supplied from a B32 MCB.
Outgoing from the FCU is a 1.5mm cable supplying outdoor lighting in a large garden. Max Zs for a B32 MCB is 1.44ohms (1.15ohms corrected) and max Zs for a 3A BS 1362 fuse is 16.4ohms (13.12ohms corrected).

If the measured value of earth fault loop impedance at the connection to the final garden light was less than that required to disconnect a B32 MCB in 0.4s then I would treat it as one circuit but if it was above that figure and below that required to disconnect a 3A BS 1362 fuse within 0.4s then I would treat it as two circuits, each having a separate schedule of test results with the FCU acting as a distribution board.