Phone wiring confusion

[Lemond2008]

I have just found an additional phone socket in our new house, which upon testing was found not to work! I have looked briefly at the wiring, and can't make out what has been done - hence posting this question!
I shall try to explain what I have found.
There appears to be a main incoming phone cable which splits at a junction box into two new cables - one of which goes to the additional phone socket (followed that wire), and the other appears as best I can see to go to the main socket (sleeve colours match at least!). These cables are wired together as follows:
Incoming cable to main cable connected by pairing orange-orange and white-white. These match the colours connected at the main socket.
Incoming cable to additional socket cable by pairing Green(incoming cable)-blue/white(additional socket cable) and black (incoming cable)-white/blue(additional socket cable).
Should this wiring result in the additional socket working as a normal phone/broadband line, or is it some sort of leftover from when there were dedicated fast internet lines?

Any thoughts gratefully received!

 

[shaky1105]

The orange and white pair is the first pair in the dropwire from the pole. The green and black pair is used as an additional line. It looks like the other socket you have found used to be a second independent phone line into the house. This has obviously been ceased now as it is not working.

 

[tonyelectric]

In a modern Loop-Disconnect phone system only two wires are used, these are termed Tip and Ring, Tip is the negative and ring is positive which is earthed at the pole/distribution pillar. The wiring will enter your house via a master socket containing a surge protector (older systems have junction boxes and the SP located elsewhere or outside ) and then all the phones will be in parallel to the consumer side of the master socket.

What you have is most probably the remains of a second line, either a phone, fax, internet that is now disconnected at the pole/street cabinet and redundant, move these wires in parallel to the normal phone wires and it should come to life

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

The phrase 'modern Loop-Disconnect phone system' made me smile a bit. Loop Disconnect referred to the old system of dialling numbers by interrupting the local loop at 10 i.p.s., now long superceded by Multi-Frequency dialling.

The 'ring' and 'tip' I'm guessing, referred originally to where the lines would be terminated at the exchange on those parts of a coaxial plug (images of manual switchboards spring to mind).

 

[tonyelectric]

Loop Disconnect is indeed an old term but is still used even though the dialling is now via tones (frequencies), the phone system still supports rotary dial pulse dialling, the key feature of LD is that only the initiator can cancel a call, the receiving end cannot, unlike PBX which can (locally at least).

Tip and Ring are indeed throwbacks to plug board exchanges, the positive earth arrangement is to prevent corrosion of the wiring and goes back to telegraph days.

Best document ever on phones has to be the Bell System Practices, American book c1930s - 1984, the '84 edition covers almost everything, the US got tone dialling in about '62 and were way ahead of the GPO so the BSP is about up to date for us now

 

[Lemond2008]

Thanks guys - the 'Junction box' term was used in the loosest sense for this! What it really is is a box containing a couple of scotchblock type connectors which I can't see how to get apart to add additional cables to. Therefore, if I am understanding correctly, to wire the additional socket in in parallel will require two sets of three wires to be connected together (orange-orange-blue/white and white-white-white/blue). Is it really bad to 'twist and tape' phone lines?
The other option I think I have is to use an additional pair of wires from the main socket cable, connect these to the additional socket wires and connect them at the main socket to make the additional act as a slave - is this a better route? If so, which pins do I connect to (I think it's 5 and 2 from reading other info?)

Thanks again

 

[ericmark]

With a modern cordless phone only the 2 and 5 wires are required and if wrong way around often still works.

With a non powered phone then a third wire number 4 is required to get phone to ring and the 2 and 5 wires do need to be correct way around. Number 1, 3, and 6 do nothing.

The master socket has a capacitor, resistor and spark gap which allow the ring to work.

I have in past had a problem where wires were wrong but would work some phones and also had a fax machine from HK which for some reason swapped the 2 and 5 wires around. It was normal to run phones through the fax machine so once a fax was detected it would disconnect all phones and get a better signal. But with newer machines this is no longer required.

 

[Lemond2008]

Thanks guys - Just wired the main wire into pin 2 and 5 and moved the scotch blocks to connect these to the additional box. All working and this is the broadband connection I'm typing on now!

 

[sparkwright]

With a modern cordless phone only the 2 and 5 wires are required and if wrong way around often still works.

With a non powered phone then a third wire number 4 is required to get phone to ring and the 2 and 5 wires do need to be correct way around. Number 1, 3, and 6 do nothing.

The master socket has a capacitor, resistor and spark gap which allow the ring to work.

I have in past had a problem where wires were wrong but would work some phones and also had a fax machine from HK which for some reason swapped the 2 and 5 wires around. It was normal to run phones through the fax machine so once a fax was detected it would disconnect all phones and get a better signal. But with newer machines this is no longer required.

Surely it's 2, 3 and 5 you use?

 

[MrTinker]

as allready mentioned 2 and 5 are the 'signal' conections and 4 is the ringing conection which is only conected between the master socket and any additional slave sockets, although this is not allways needed it is better to conect it. as for colour coding there is a standard(which i can't remember off the top of my head) but very oftern it is not followed, so just make sure whatever colour is pin 2 at one end is pin 2 at the other. if the terminals look like a thin slot you just press the wire into it with a thin blade say the back edge of a stanley blade, avoid using a screwdriver as you will splay the terminal and get a poor conection. hope this helps.

 

[tonyelectric]

Wire 4 is a new one on me, I re-wire antique phones for a dealer in such things and only the 300 series (bakelite with drawer) need wire 4 to ring, everything else is fine with 2 & 5, done 700 series, Trimphone, Trimtone, Statesman, Viscount, 500 series, Princess, Starlite Princess - never needed wire 4.

 

[MrTinker]

Sorry my mistake the bell wire is 3 NOT 4

 

[tonyelectric]

Sorry my mistake the bell wire is 3 NOT 4

Only on 300 series as I say, bell is wited between 2 & 5 in series with the hook switch and the bell capacitor, when you lift the handset the hook switch transfers the circuit provided by 2 & 5 to the network card.

The diagram below is for a touch tone type 2500 desk phone, note the third wire terminates at the connection block, it goes nowhere from here, it would only be used if an exclusion or transfer key was fitted


View media item 29131 [/img]

 

[tonyelectric]

Good old wikipeadia explains the two wire system

"Tip" and "Ring" are common terms in the telephone service industry referring to the two wires or sides of an ordinary telephone line. Tip is the ground side (positive) and Ring is the battery (negative) side of a phone circuit. In the UK these are referred to as the 'A' (earth) and 'B' (battery) wires. The ground side is common with the central office of the telephone company (telco); the battery side carries -48 volts of DC voltage when in an "idle" or "on hook" state (nominally -50 volts in the UK). The combination of tip and ring, then, makes up a normal phone line circuit, just as a car's battery needs both connections leads to have a complete electrical circuit. To ring the phone to alert to an incoming call, about 90 volts of 20 Hz AC current is superimposed over the DC voltage already present on the idle line.

 

[Lectrician]

Definantly terminal 3 that provides AC ring current.

There is a capacitor between 2 and 3. The capacitor by it's nature blocks the normal DC line current from terminal 3, but allows the AC ring current to pass.

Therefore, between terminal 3 and 5 you will be presented with the AC ring current to ring a bell, or the ringer in your phone.