Pipe Diameter Advice

OK Thanks.

So it stops any water (hot or cold), back-feeding down the hot pipe?

Rather like the valves in veins....
 
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The plumber has just tried the flow on the shower using the 15mm pipes and the flow is poor so he will change to 22mm.

He thinks this will reduce the pressure.

If the 22mm does not improve the situation, is there going to be a problem adding a pump to the 22mm pipes, as he says he does not want to change back to 15mm.

I'm going out of my mind here!!
 
I have not read this thread.

But most showers are designed for mains pressure supplies.

I doubt changing to 22 mm pipes will help significantly.

A shower pump is the usual solution!

Tony
 
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agreed, either that or choose a shower from Bristan which operates at low pressure...

Bristan is a UK company that supplies fitting that work with UK plumbing systems
 
Sh*t. You mean this shower (designed to run at 0.1 bar) will not work any better on 22mm than 15?

The flow on 15mm takes 26 seconds to fill my 2 litre jug with the shower set to cold and 36 seconds set to hot. That's with the hose at the top of the jug and the jug on the tray.....

Oh dear.

Now you're going to tell me that the plumber, who I can hear is grimly ripping out his newly installed 15mm pipes to replace them with 22 on my say-so will not see much for his efforts...
 
It will be much better, certainly noticeable, but whether thats enough going on the above numbers is another story.
 
I am feeling more nervous now than just before I got married, took my first flight, had sex for the first time and anything else nerve-wracking you can think of.........all combined together.

If the 22mm is no better than the 15, the plumber will just let fly snorts of derision in my face. That is bad enough, but then I will have to consider a pump. Cue further snorts of derision...

I have just rung Triton technical, who say the shower should deliver on 0.1 bar pressure without the need for a pump. Of course, they say with a pump the performance will be better, but say it will be adequate without.

Now I know why God had me down as a sparkie and not a plumber....

Talking of God, please pray that 22mm will work.
 
Oh dear.

Now you're going to tell me that the plumber, who I can hear is grimly ripping out his newly installed 15mm pipes to replace them with 22 on my say-so will not see much for his efforts...

The plumber is meant to be the expert! You should be letting him design the system. Not you!

Then when it does not work you can blame him!

Before connecting the shower the open pipe flow rate should have been checked from the 15 mm pipe.

Would you want a plumber choosing mains distribution cable sizes?
 
Ss to recap

The hot to your bath should be run in 22 preferably cold as well if you are going to go to gravity and pump hot and cold

15 to the shower is fine teed off of the 22

You should have a non return valve on your hot (double check)

You should have a pressure reducing valve on your cold

Options to increase your shower performance.

Fit a single impeller pump on your hot

Raise the height of your cold tank

If your cold water tank is big enough to serve both the hot and cold, change the cold over to gravity and pump the hot and cold (it will give you equal pressure, flow and a good performance

If the cold tank is not big enough, see about a bigger one.

I think you should get a professional plumber around to look at this option and the size of your tank

You could drop a separate cold feed from the tank just to serve your shower and then pump hot and cold to your shower

How did you get on this afternoon
 
My reply from earlier seems to have disappeared.... :?:

Agile. Thanks for your reply.

I let him design the system. He agreed that if I was not happy with the flow from the 15mm pipe he would upgrade to 22mm. He did. The flow rate was not that much improved.

Terry, thanks.

The bath will not be pumped. It has double the head over the shower and vastly better flow rates.

The hot is 22, except for the last 2m, which was altered by the plumber in 15mm.

The shower was 15mm, with a piddly flow, now upped to 22 slightly less piddly but nevertheless still piddly.....

PRV and NRV will have to wait.....

Cannot raise tank...

Cold already gravity.

How did I get on this afternoon?

Plumber peed off. Me peed off.

;)

I'm only a spark. Wish I was a plumber....

Can't understand why the old Aqualisa shower on 22mm worked fine with a decent flow rate and this one does not?

Is the Triton Tesla the wrong bit of kit?

It still has 1/2" BSP inlets....does this cause an issue?

If anyone local wants to come and look at this plumbing and give me your honest opinion, I'll gladly pay you.

ShowerValve.jpg
 
I'm going to have to read back over the thread, whoever said the cold was on main completely confused the matter.

Just fit a pump, no pressure reducing valve etc required if both are on gravity.
 
Sorry SS but the flow is so low ( about 4.6 litres/minute cold) (from 60/13 seconds) that the pressure drop in the PIPE is going to be pretty insignificant.
The shower valve is clearly adding a lot more resistance than your bath taps where both flows were about 12 litres/minute.


It's like you have a fixed voltage ( the head of water) and lousy current(flow).
So you have a big resistor in there. You work out the resistance from Ohms law and it says there's say 50 ohms ( like 50 metres of pipe!). So removing the resistance of a couple of metres of pipe, like removing a couple of Ohms, is not going to make a significant difference. You'll still have 48 Ohms.

If the flow was lowish but the resistance worked out to a total of 6 Ohms , then removing 2 Ohms would make a big difference.

I worked it out best I could for the bath, and it wasn't much, so it's going to be less for the shower.

It's like having a high resistance light bulb designed for 240V and using it on 110 volts. Making the cable fatter won't make the difference. I'm labouring this, sorry!

Your shower could be something like the one my father used as above, you have similar flow.
Your HOT flow will be a lot lower than your COLD flow if the water's cold - the mixer (assuming it's thermostatic) will try to stop the water - cos it's cold!
So when you have hot hot water you should get something like 4+ liters a minute from each side, eg 4.6 from the hot and whatever from the cold to get the temperature right, which will be about 7 litres/minute. Well you won't smell anyway.

But the speed of the water at the showerhead will still be poor. You'll get a wash from a gravity shower but nothing exciting.

He thinks this will reduce the pressure.
Increasing the pipe size - he doesn't understand much, does he. He probably has it in his head that the water will go slower (speed) through the bigger pipe, which it will. Irrelevant to you. Nothing to do with pressure at the head.


If you're confused as hell now, consider the Electric shower.
They HAVE to reduce the flow to about 4l/min because otherwise the 11kW or whatever, can't heat it up enough. They do that by making the holes in the showerhead small. The actual pressure is mains, which is HIGH. So all the pressure is dropped across the resistance of the holes in the head. Because the pressure's there. The water is forced through at high speed. So it hits your back at high speed and feels like a half decent shower.
YOU can't use a head like that with your 4l/min, because your pressure's low, so it'll be a dribble at 4l/min instead of fine jets at 4l/min.

Your plumber should have worked all this out before he started. If he didn't know how, he should have found out.
Yes he should have fitted 22mm from the off, but he should have known it wouldn't give you great flow anyway.
If you push a shower/tap/valve manufacturer, you CAN get figures, eg if you ask then what flow you will get when the pressure is (say) 0.2 bar, they DO have the graphs to look at. Getting someone who understands, can be ridiculously difficult though. I've just looked for data online for 3 makes and found squat.

SO your options... Apart from the pump, you could look for an even lower operating pressure shower, but the lowest I've seen says 0.2 bar, and that's all you have, so don't expect much. (No they don't quote resistance or flow!). No mileage there then.

What about lifting the tank in the loft?
The ACTUAL head you have while you're showering is from the water level in the cistern to the shower head.
I bet that's less than 2 metres.
8 ft ceiling, head 1ft 6 from the ceiling, plus the joists and boards, plus water depth say a foot, that's about ONE metre.
( sorry I'm old, I swap between units...)

So if you could lift your cistern by a metre, you'd double your head. Lots of people do it with 4x2s and ply, it works. Use plastic 22mm if you like, it doesn't take all that long.
You would somewhere near double your flow.
14l/min shower is plenty good enough.

Sorry you're gonna have grief from your "plumber" . Tell him your wife has stopped washing your socks and is threatening to stop feeding you. At least then you'll get a bit of sympathy. Someone as thick as him must have had trouble with his wife at some point in his life.
Good luck!
 
Posts crossed - I'm off to look up triton tesla.
Aqualisa are good kit, if they say it'll work on gravity they MEAN it.
 
Ok some progress - ambiguous though
The Tesla seems to be one they only sell through the likes of Screwfix.
the info says 3 l/min at 0.1 bar - which is something like what you have. But is that one inlet or both?
Do you have high ceilings?

If you look in Triton's standard range at a cheapie - eg the Nene,
http://www.tritonshowers.co.uk/media/8398/unichrome_nene_bar_mixer.pdf
it says 8l/min and 6 l/min - seems odd, are they talking one or both inlets.
Anyway it's more.

Note that you might have flow limiters and/or non return valves in the inlets to your shower. Have a look, and lever them out. You don't want them and they will make a difference.
You have "balanced" supplies so there should be no chance of water going up the wrong pipe.

I'd be calling Triton help line to see what they say. They will probably tell you which of their standard name showers the Tesla is - unless it's a very cheap version or something.
Check the diameter of the actual shower hose bore as well - remember wot I sed above about both H and C having to share it. It needs to be big as possible - you can get 13mm, though 8 is all too common.
 

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