pipework under screed

[Balenza]

Softus wrote

can you explain exactly what you mean by "bodging"?

Wrapping CH pipes with tape is bodging in my view , as is running CH pipes up walls when their is no need.

 

[Softus]

can you explain exactly what you mean by "bodging"?

Wrapping CH pipes with tape is bodging in my view , as is running CH pipes up walls when their is no need.

I think you've misunderstood me.

You've given two examples of what you consider to be acts of bodging, whereas what I'm curious to know is your definition of the word "bodging".

A definition is something that can be used to test whether or not a particular case fits the concept that applies to that definition. For example...

My definition of the word "reliable", when describing a thing, is: something that satisfies the user's requirements for reasonable longevity and a high MTBF. Optionally, I might also say that when I use that word I'm implying that reliable is A Good Thing for something to be.

Using my definition, in this example, you could, if you wished to, accurately predict whether or not I would personally regard any arbitrarily selected object to be a reliable one, simply by measuring its longevity and MTBF and then deciding whether or not they are reasonable in the circumstances. Ideally, a definition is short, clear, and unambiguous.

It's not very informative to say that "wrapping CH pipes is bodging" as a definition of bodging, because I have no idea why you believe it's bodging; you might believe it to be aesthetically poor, or technically risky, or simply lazy, or something else. I don't know, but I'm in danger of putting words in your mouth, and I'm interested in your opinion because you appear to feel strongly about this.

 

[Balenza]

Softus wrote

It's not enough to say that "wrapping CH pipes is bodging

Perhaps I should have said botching then.
The Oxford Mini Dictionary gives the definition for botch as-
" spoil by poor work "

 

[Softus]

It's not enough to say that "wrapping CH pipes is bodging

Perhaps I should have said botching then.
The Oxford Mini Dictionary gives the definition for botch as-
" spoil by poor work "

I hope thats clear enough ?

It's an abundantly clear definition - ta.

However, now I can't reconcile the use of Denzo tape with your accusation of botching.

Does the presence of Denzo tape "spoil" the installation, when buried within semi-dry screed? I can't see how it would.

Is the use of Denzo tape "poor"? If it's effective, which I believe it to be, then I'd have to say that it isn't "poor".

By that token I'd have to say that the use of Denzo tape, according to your own definition, isn't botching.

However, since I know perfectly well that you're still going to consider that it is botching, this must mean one of three things:

1. The definition you're offered doesn't fully describe what you mean.
2. You have a prejudice against the use of Denzo tape.
3. There's some other reason, that I haven't yet considered, and that you haven't yet explained.

 

[Balenza]

Softus wrote

1. The definition you're offered doesn't fully describe what you mean.
2. You have a prejudice against the use of Denzo tape.
3. There's some other reason, that I haven't yet considered, and that you haven't yet explained

I see it as bodging because of the time it would take to wrap the CH pipes.
And just how many rolls does it take to wrap a 6m length of copper doing a 50 percent overwrap or whatever and how much time would be wasted doing this.
How long would it take to wrap 120m of 22mm copper in a large new build along with 50m 28mm and 80m 15mm.??
I also see it as bodging because it offers little or no insulation protection to the pipes.
Many will say the pipes are within the heated envelope of the building so not a problem.
My view is that the pipes should be well insulated and deliver all the heat to the radiator.
Armaflex insulation is the best choice to acheive this.

 

[Softus]

...
1. The definition you're offered doesn't fully describe what you mean.
2. You have a prejudice against the use of Denzo tape.
3. There's some other reason, that I haven't yet considered, and that you haven't yet explained

I see it as bodging because of the time it would take to wrap the pipes.

But that has nothing to do with spoiling or being poor.

If you object to the time it takes, then why didn't you just say that it's not time-effective, or not efficient, or slow? Being slow doesn't make someone a botcher/bodger, does it?

And just how many rolls does it take to wrap a 6m length of copper doing a 50 percent overwrap or whatever...

I don't know, and it sounds like you don't either. And I don't know why we need to know how many rolls.

...and how much time would be wasted doing this.

Again, I don't know. If you want to know then you could politely ask one of the people who regularly use it and understand how to use it.

How long would it take to wrap 120m of 22mm copper in a large new build along with 50m 28mm and 80m 15mm.?

I don't know. :shrug:

I also see it as bodging because it offers little or no insulation protection to the pipes.

Are you saying that it doesn't meet some standard or regulatory requirement? That wouldn't be bodging though - that would be failing to do the job, wouldn't it? Or do you use the word bodging whenever someone makes an error of any kind.

Many will say the pipes are within the heated envelope of the building so not a problem.
My view is that the pipes should be well insulated and deliver all the heat to the radiator.

Fair play, but are you saying that you judge the success and effectiveness of a job according to your own personal criteria, and place less importance on whether or not the job is effective, is done within the bounds of the law, and whether or not the customer is satisfied?

Armaflex insulation is the best choice to acheive this.

I don't yet see how, but even if it it is the "best", then second-best is not bodging, it's just not as good. In the same way that fitting a good quality non-thermostatic shower valve isn't a bodge, just because a thermostatic one might be better.

 

[Balenza]

You wont change my mind Softus.
If you had a plumber on 40 new builds installing with Armaflex insulation and another plumber on 40 with pipes wrapped up with tape then the latter is a bodger. Plain and simple.
Not forgetting the fact that he would not get through the site gate to begin with lol.

 

[gas4you]

You wont change my mind Softus.
If you had a plumber on 40 new builds installing with Armaflex insulation and another plumber on 40 with pipes wrapped up with tape then the latter is a bodger. Plain and simple.
Not forgetting the fact that he would not get through the site gate to begin with lol.

If you're on a site that still allows copper in screed then I think the whole building company should be classed as a 'bodger'

Nearly all new builds these days are in plastic with drops to rads and taps. I wouldn't use armaflex in screed either.

What are you going to seal the joints in the armaflex with? Denso tape?

 

[Softus]

You wont change my mind Softus.

Oh I wasn't trying to, but thanks for letting us know that you're available for an open-minded discussion.

If you had a plumber on 40 new builds installing with Armaflex insulation and another plumber on 40 with pipes wrapped up with tape then the latter is a bodger. Plain and simple.

Plain and simple it might be, but you've managed to make it obscure and complicated!

Not forgetting the fact that he would not get through the site gate to begin with lol.

Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha.

 

[Balenza]

Gas4you wrote

If you're on a site that still allows copper in screed then I think the whole building company should be classed as a 'bodger'

Many do and many have reverted back to copper due to pushfit failures.

Nearly all new builds these days are in plastic with drops to rads and taps.

Timber frames YES. Block built NO. Thats the practise in my area anyway.

I wouldn't use armaflex in screed either.

Thats because your a pipe wrapper and have probably never heard tell of Armaflex insulation and have no understanding of the benefits.

What are you going to seal the joints in the armaflex with? Denso tape?

Does everything have to be repeated twice on this forum ?

 

[Softus]

If you're on a site that still allows copper in screed then I think the whole building company should be classed as a 'bodger'

Many do and many have reverted back to copper due to pushfit failures.

Many do what? Use copper in screed? WTF does that have to do with pushfit, which is a completely different subject (that has been covered so often that it's surely not something you want to open up again here)?

I wouldn't use armaflex in screed either.

Thats because your a pipe wrapper and have probably never heard tell of Armaflex insulation and have no understanding of the benefits.

You're not prejudiced at all then.

What are you going to seal the joints in the armaflex with? Denso tape?

Does everything have to be repeated twice on this forum ?

Do you recognise any shade at all between black and white? Can you not tolerate a single solitary instance of someone missing one of your earlier statements?

On the subject of repetition, because you haven't yet been able to provide a succinct definition of bodging, please can you provide a a succinct definition of bodging?

 

[gas4you]

Admittedly missed the last point already had been said.

I'm not a pipe wrapper, in fact I only use copper, but if it has to be in screed then only plastic coated. I certainley do not let the screed be laid before I have completed thethat section and air pressure tested it.

All new builds I know of, for large developers, whatever construction, use plastic in my area.

 

[Balenza]

If you're on a site that still allows copper in screed then I think the whole building company should be classed as a 'bodger'

Many do and many have reverted back to copper due to pushfit failures.

Many do what? Use copper in screed? WTF does that have to do with pushfit, which is a completely different subject (that has been covered so often that it's surely not something you want to open up again here)?

I wouldn't use armaflex in screed either.

Thats because your a pipe wrapper and have probably never heard tell of Armaflex insulation and have no understanding of the benefits.

You're not prejudiced at all then.

What are you going to seal the joints in the armaflex with? Denso tape?

Does everything have to be repeated twice on this forum ?

Do you recognise any shade at all between black and white? Can you not tolerate a single solitary instance of someone missing one of your earlier statements?

On the subject of repetition, because you haven't yet been able to provide a succinct definition of bodging, please can you provide a a succinct definition of bodging?

As I have repeated before on this forum Softus ,you are a sad assed tozzer who gets a kick out of nit picking through other peoples posts.

 

[doitall]

You wont change my mind Softus.
If you had a plumber on 40 new builds installing with Armaflex insulation and another plumber on 40 with pipes wrapped up with tape then the latter is a bodger. Plain and simple.
Not forgetting the fact that he would not get through the site gate to begin with lol.

Armaflex Insulation the best only an Armaflex salesman would say that, and in any case Ballensa arguments don't hold water even if Armaflex lagging does.

Armaflex lagging is known to be a problem with vermin, in fact they love it even more than Ballenso.

Back to the Ballensi boxes he chucks together, sorry builds. The floors for starters should meet current regs and be well insulated, lagging the heating pipes is un-neccessary.

Since we keep talking about Bodgers and Balenski, a good quality builder would provide pre-formed ducts for the pipes to run in.

And on that note you would be off the job faster than a rat up you're drain if you didn't on our jobs

 

[Balenza]

The refrigeration guys use nothing else and it gets chucked into some pretty harsh environmnents.
As for rodents eating the stuff its true,but they tend to have a problem with the screed buried Armaflex.
As for lagging the pipes being unnecessary I disagree.
It fulfills two purposes on new build screed buried pipes as has been said.
What expense ducting ?? And pretty useless if you were tiling over or laying expensive wooden floors ???
You wouldnt get near my place Doitall. You sound like a bodger.