plumbing not by a plumber

[annemarie]

Dear All
We are agreed to purchase a beautiful barn conversion. Unfortunately last week we just found out that the electrics were installed by the vendor. An electrician is currently testing the system and will certify the system.
The next problem is that it seems the vendor has also done the plumbing. There is a pressured Megaflo tank, and an oil fired heating system. He says that a qualified engineer installed the heating system but he did the plumbing. Is there any chance that this could be OK? And is there any value in asking a plumber to 'visually inspect" the system in the same way that I pid an electrician to do the same job last week. Has anyone ever been asked to do that?
Thanks
Anne Marie

 

[Gasguru]

Installing the Megaflow should only be done by someone suitably qualified (having a G3 ticket).

Alternatively he may have had the installation inspected by the local building control officer to make sure it complies in which case he should be able to produce documents to support this.

You could get a qualified plumber/heating engineer to give you a report on the installation but thats easier siad than done (as even Megaflo's own engineers may not be particularly competant - as was shown in another posting).

 

[annemarie]

Thank you very much. This work was started in 1997 and only signed off by building control in 2005. I'm not sure if building control was needed for this system in 1997. If he has the certificates for installation ( I think he says he has), could it be OK that he did the rest of the plumbing himself. And how would we assess if a reasonable job had been done?

 

[doitall]

just knock off £2-3 K for eventualities

 

[Agile]

Part of the problem is that Building Control has the legal responsibility for approving an installation but they dont have the expert knowledge in respect of gas, oil or unpressurised installations.

Its quite possible that BC have approved it but there could be serious deficiency with the installation.

Any plumber with the unvented qualification SHOULD be able to inspect it and issue a report, similarly any OFTEC registered person for the oil boiler!

"Should" does not always mean "can" !

Ask for a written report, that will filter out those who cannot write!

Tony

 

[Gasguru]

Since it was a barn conversion and the owner did the plumbing himself plans for the whole water installation should have been submitted to the water company for approval.

On connection to the water main the company inspector will have checked for compliance. Although this should ensure water regulations are adhered to it may not necessarily mean the installation is of good quality.

Assesing if an installation is of quality is often down to an individuals own preference eg my personal preference would be for copper pipework throughout since I've seen far too many problems with plastic pipework (many down to manufacturing faults - only to appear many years down the line)

 

[annemarie]

Thank you very much for your replies. They have been really helpful.
Anne Marie

 

[ollski]

Assesing if an installation is of quality is often down to an individuals own preference eg my personal preference would be for copper pipework throughout since I've seen far too many problems with plastic pipework (many down to manufacturing faults - only to appear many years down the line)

No, not again gg, you know softus will see this sooner or later.

 

[geoff@cetltd]

I'm saying nuurthink

 

[Gasguru]

Plastic pushfit pipework is fine if

its sleeved through walls

cut correctly

its huge expansion rate is allowed for

has the correct pipe support sleeves

the pipe and fittings are compatible

the pipe is not scuffed/damaged by installer

the pipe is not scuffed/damaged by delivery driver/courier

the pipe is not scuffed/damaged by merchant

the fittings have the correct O rings/grab rings etc

you don't mind severe friction loss through the fittings eg speedfit

the pipe extrusion machine doesn't have an off day

eg it runs out of glue bonding the layers together - ask Hepworth

it has a tea break midstream allowing the pipe to break in two again ask Hepworth

the grab rings don't decide to disintegrate after a few years

the pipe doesn't change dimension (allowing it to blow out of ccompresion fittings)

the chemical inhibitors don't degrade the fittings especially the o rings

you don't allow the boiler to overheat since the pressure rating is much reduced at elevated temperatures

you don't have rats/mice and other vermin as they are quite partial to the taste of plastic piping

you don't mind it sagging once it gets hot

you don't mind it being effected by solvent paints

you don't mind wasting endless amounts of time repairing it in years to come when the fittings will be obsolete

you don't have a conscience and can sleep at night knowing all the potential damage that can be done when it finally has enough and a joint fails

Yes I have occasionally used pushfit for temporary kitchen lash ups when renovating. The only system I have any confidence in is Quality Plastics Qualpex pipe and Yorkshires original Tectite fittings.

How many installers using pushfit do callouts as well? Bit like heating engineers pushing certain brands/models -unless you do repairs you won't see get the real picture.

 

[solo]

GG.....was just wondering if you had any opinions on the use of plastic pipe and fittings in the domestic environment?

 

[Softus]

Assesing if an installation is of quality is often down to an individuals own preference eg my personal preference would be for copper pipework throughout since I've seen far too many problems with plastic pipework (many down to manufacturing faults - only to appear many years down the line)

How many problems have you seen?

How long after it was installed?

On which brands?

Yes I have occasionally used pushfit for temporary kitchen lash ups when renovating.

Pushfit? Or plastic pipe? Or both? If plastic then why didn't you use copper, since you prefer it?

The only system I have any confidence in is Quality Plastics Qualpex pipe and Yorkshires original Tectite fittings.

So is that what you used on the temporary lash-ups?

How many installers using pushfit do callouts as well?

This one does. I've also had Hepworth pipe and fittings installed on mains cold, tank cold, and tank hot, in my own house, since 1999, with not one hint of a problem. To be fair I did, and still do, follow the MIs to the letter.

Bit like heating engineers pushing certain brands/models -unless you do repairs you won't see get the real picture.

Mmm, yes. So advocating copper in all circumstances isn't like that then? That must mean that you just stock copper, despite it being much slower to install in almost every situation, and that you don't stock all categories of fitting and pipe, ready for use when the circumstances call for it.

 

[Gasguru]

How many problems have you seen?

How long after it was installed?

On which brands?

Many problems, often as soon as its installed but sometimes years later, worst brand is Hepworth although that may be because it happens to be more popular in my area.

Recently I have attended:

pipework chewed though by rats (not in a basement),

the ground floor of a house flooded (water poured over the front door threshold and the neighbours called aout an emergency plumber thinking they had a leak - it ran through the party wall)

a compresion joint blew off a plastic pipe, couldn't see anything wrong with the pipe,liner or fitting - the plastic appeared to "relax" - £10,000 worth of damage to the oak flooring

Pushfit? Or plastic pipe? Or both? If plastic then why didn't you use copper, since you prefer it?

For a temporary lash up Tectite and Qualpex. Only copper fittings and pipe for the final installation.

in my own house, since 1999, with not one hint of a problem. To be fair I did, and still do, follow the MIs to the letter

Perhaps you've been lucky. Following the MI's doesn't protect you from the design faults with some systems or the manufacturing faults - manufacturing copper pipe and fittings is a relatively simple process. Moulding plastic pipe and fittings requires far more complex manufacturing techniques with the potential for many more problems.

That must mean that you just stock copper, despite it being much slower to install in almost every situation

It always comes down to that, plastic is faster to install so that must be a good thing never mind the fact it looks a mess and all the other inherent problems.

Quality installations take time and fortunately there are still customers who appreciate the higher quality and piece of mind copper gives them.

 

[Softus]

How many problems have you seen?

Many problems

Wow! As many as that! I'm shocked.

How long after it was installed?

often as soon as its installed

Hmm. Installation faults then. Best install it competently, then you'll see as few leaks as I do, i.e. about one per year (simlar to copper, and far less often than tap connectors on a nylon WC inlet), and I have notes about why each one happened.

...but sometimes years later

What? Like 15 years? Like the average lifetime of copper tube?

On which brands?

worst brand is Hepworth although that may be because it happens to be more popular in my area.

I grant you that - IMHO Hep requires a bit more effort to install that some of the producs that are targetted more at numpties. The effort is well rewarded though, by the absence of leaks.

Recently I have attended:

pipework chewed though by rats (not in a basement),

Mm hmm. Does that happen more, or less, often than copper tube wears down to paper thinness or pinholes from corrosion?

...the ground floor of a house flooded (water poured over the front door threshold

Yup - I had one of those in March - copper tube under kitchen sink corroded through and dumped mains water over the hallway for 5 days while the owners were away. Pity they hadn't used plastic instead.

...a compresion joint blew off a plastic pipe, couldn't see anything wrong with the pipe,liner or fitting - the plastic appeared to "relax" - £10,000 worth of damage to the oak flooring

So - I take it that you believe that to have been a manufacturing fault. Did you return the fitting to the manufacturer for an explanation?

Pushfit? Or plastic pipe? Or both? If plastic then why didn't you use copper, since you prefer it?

For a temporary lash up Tectite and Qualpex. Only copper fittings and pipe for the final installation.

It seems that you misunderstood the question. It was: "Why did you use plastic for a temporary installation, since you prefer copper for everything?".

...in my own house, since 1999, with not one hint of a problem. To be fair I did, and still do, follow the MIs to the letter

Perhaps you've been lucky.

Yeah, I'm so lucky. And the more care and effort I put into my work, the luckier I get.

Following the MI's doesn't protect you from the design faults with some systems or the manufacturing faults

It certainly does, because when it goes wrong you can claim from the manfacturer under the terms of their warranty.

manufacturing copper pipe and fittings is a relatively simple process. Moulding plastic pipe and fittings requires far more complex manufacturing techniques with the potential for many more problems.

I'll have to take your word for that, since I know nothing about the manufacturing processes. Still, progress usually comes at a price.

That must mean that you just stock copper, despite it being much slower to install in almost every situation

It always comes down to that, plastic is faster to install so that must be a good thing never mind the fact it looks a mess and all the other inherent problems.

If you don't use it because you don't like the look of it then just say so, rather than criticse the product for some dreamed up technical non-reason.

Quality installations take time and fortunately there are still customers who appreciate the higher quality and piece of mind copper gives them.

Yup. But even more fortunately those customers are completely outnumbered by the ones who appreciate a job being done more quickly, or with fewer noisy bends, or with no risk of a naked flame under the upstairs floorboards, or with the ability to quickly dismantle and reassemble fittings when, for example, renewing taps, or the decreased risk of bacterial growth when used to feed mains to a loft cistern, or the longevity compared to copper, or the open-minded approach to using the best materials for the job in hand (the list goes on)...

 

[Gasguru]

I couldn't even be bothered to read your posting Softus. You have your opinions I have mine.

DIYnot is gradually going the same way as several other forums - petty bickering, futile arguments etc therfore in an effort to keep this forum from degenerating the same way I shall not continue this fruitless discussion.
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