Police State

[jasy]

So why are you having nightmares about peoples heads being hacked off? Once upon a time it was very popular to watch a good beheading in this country. Do you not think that showing these films was intended to make the British public and government rush off and do all the wrong things?
.

You are having a laugh mate?? That was justice wasn't it? This is somebody outside of any rule of law taking innocent lives in the name of his religion. I know you will come back and say " well, in the crusades this and that happened" This is 2005. These people are murderers and are using the Iraqi situation as a smokescreen to run their own personal little wars. They are killing innocent Iraqis, did you not forget that, oh but sorry, they are terrorists with a cause and that is ok in your eyes isn't it

 

[Damocles]

What I was trying to point out is that we consider ourselves terribly terribly civilised in this country. Once upon a time public executions were quite common here. Now it is rather the opposite. people are horrified at the slightest thing. There are different countries in the world which do not share our attitude. Life is still cheap out there.

So i would not come back and say, people did that in the crusades. I would come back and say, people do that right now. And some of them work for us. Seen any squaddie holiday snaps recently?

Prisoners were filmed being tortured because the people doing it understand perfectly well how to upset the British public. It was not done because they were evil. Probably not because they liked doing it. They may even have detested doing it. It was a calculated propaganda exercise. I am quite sure there are American and British security officers employed to devise exactly the best propaganda to achieve our aims too.

Just remember, it IS propaganda. What are they trying to make you do? Perhaps they are trying to make you demand vengeance and stupidly escalate the war.

It is not exactl true to say people are using the Iraqi war as a smokescreen. The Iraqi war IS their personal war and they are fighting it for the greatest possible aims. Their own lives, their friends and families lives, possession of their own country. Always tricky when several groups reckon they have a right to the same patch of land. The situation inside Iraq is way beyond 'terrorists'. It is factions fighting pretty openly for victory.

 

[david and julie]

I can think of nothing more condescending than someone trying to be something their not. Damocles your are talking utter rubbish.

These people hate us, they chop our heads off because they enjoy it. You mention propaganda.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=propaganda

The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.
Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause: wartime propaganda.

Chopping someones head off is not for our benefit you stupid person, it is to goad and encourage the rest of the evil barstewards over there on, against us. It is for their benefit not ours They are animals baying for blood, western blood. Have you read of any of them being shopped or their identities being disclosed?

Make your mind up, you say on the one hand they are freedom fighters trying to get us out , on the other they are trying to lengthen the war. Which way do you want it tonight?

And this.

So i would not come back and say, people did that in the crusades. I would come back and say, people do that right now. And some of them work for us. Seen any squaddie holiday snaps recently?

These guys may work for us, but they didn't represent us at the time which is why they were court marshalled.

Why do you live in the UK if you would prefer it to be like the East? would it not be easier for you to go and live there rather than try and convert us?

 

[Freddie]

A few weeks ago the Iraqi people bravely turned out to vote in their election and by doing so were in danger of losing their lives.

75% turnout, a western goverment would give their right arm for that.

They voted for a party which completly disagrees with the insurgents.

From that day the insurgents were not freedom fighters of any kind, they became criminals and murderers which have to be killed on sight before they can inflict harm on anybody else

 

[david and julie]

I wish I'd of thought of that Freddie, it couldn't be put better.

 

[kendor]

Why do you live in the UK if you would prefer it to be like the East? would it not be easier for you to go and live there rather than try and convert us?

If you feel so strongly about interfering in other peoples business why don't you go over there and sort it out yourself instead of getting others to do your dirty work?

 

[jasy]

It is not exactl true to say people are using the Iraqi war as a smokescreen. The Iraqi war IS their personal war and they are fighting it for the greatest possible aims. Their own lives, their friends and families lives, possession of their own country. Always tricky when several groups reckon they have a right to the same patch of land. The situation inside Iraq is way beyond 'terrorists'. It is factions fighting pretty openly for victory.

You do not live on this planet do you. Insurgents??, does this ring a bell. People who are not Iraqi, could not give a toss about Iraqis and are killing Iraqis. It is not about land. It is a Jihad. A holy war. You CANNOT engage in discussion with these people because their ultimate goal is the destruction of Westerners and their ideals and anybody who wants to try democracy. I know you will still not believe it but there are bad people over there

 

[Damocles]

If it is not about land, then perhaps we should all move into ireland and offer them the british mainland to live in if they will just stop fighting. Got a problem with that? I suspect about 50,000,000 people might tell you they objected. And what's more, they might even dtart fighting if you tried to evict them.

Why on earth would I want this country to be like the middle east? Didn't you notice I wanted it to remain an open, free liberal democracy?

Initial suggestions of a 75% turnout have been officially reduced to a mere 57% of those registered to vote. No figure has been published of what proportion of the population was actually registered. About 13% of those abroad and eligible to vote did so. The northern Kurds voted for Kurds. The south voted for their party and the centre for theirs. (figures from a quick websearch of the Guardian online)

Surprisinlgly, most of them still do not hate us. Perhaps the terorists do. perhaps not. It is a grave mistake to assume that terrorists are rabid nutters even if they try to appear so.

Now as to propaganda, I would suspect that terrorists chopping the heads off foreigners who are liked and have lived in Iraq for years is not an act calculated to incite the locals to riot. Quite the reverse I would think. It is exactly directed at us, not Arabs. It is indended to drive out everyone trying to provide aid and rebuild the country. It is intended to make us use harsh tactics. It is designed to scare our troops into shooting first and asking questions later. It is intended into provoking Americans into unjustified seizures, arrests and indeed torture.

 

[Damocles]

Oh, and I am not at all happy about these squaddies. We seem to be suffering from some british propaganda. It is extraordinary to me that soldiers -any soldiers- can be convicted of war crimes but all their superior officers are found blameless. That is not my idea of chain of command.

Soldiers are taught to obey orders. That is the most important thing any soldier is conditioned to. So if soldiers do something wrong it is the responsibility of their commanders. I absolutely hate the kind of people who let it be known that a certain outcome is expected, but then allow the squaddies to take the blame when it goes wrong.

These guys were on charges because they took their holiday snaps to boots! what does that tell you? Obviously that they did not think they had done anything wrong. No one had told them that what they did was wrong. Patently no one present thought it was wrong. Quite possibly they did not treat the Iraqis any worse than they treat other soldiers in training. The Iraqis concerned seem to have disappeared. Happy to have been released with a bit of hazing rather than being gaoled.

But it should not have happened. That it did was a failure of command.

 

[Freddie]

Damocles-------I have been over this twice now and i still dont see what you are on about.

 

[jasy]

Damocles, listen mate you are going around in circles, IT IS NOT ABOUT land in Iraq. The people doing the fighting are made up of a majority of NON Iraqis. Going on the turnout in the elections the normal man on the street is glad that he can vote without fear of persecution. The insurgents are definately using Iraq as a smokescreen to wage their own war of hate on the west. Ireland is a different kettle of fish so do not even bother comparing the two.
There was something to discuss with the IRA, they had a reason, whether right or wrong, that could be discussed. You cannot sit down and discuss with somebody whose ultimate goal is to destroy westerners and their ideals. Suicide bombers for example, they are told that they will be martyrs and live forever if they blow themselvs up.! This is the sort of mentality you have to deal with Can you not get your head around that and stop defending them!

 

[Damocles]

Turnout in the 1997 UK general election was 71% and 2001 59%. Both these figures where higher than the Iraqi turnout. Typically turnout has been around 70% for all uk elections over the last 40 years. So actualy the result for our last election or the Iraqi figure 57% would be considered a bit low rather than respectable.

Jasy said it was not about land. I was trying to suggest that it was. And I gave the example that the British people would react in exactly the same way if some outsider wanted part of this country. And in fact Irelend is a very good comparison.

Irish people from both north and south fought to protect Britain from Germany. But the people from the south also fought for their independence from the mainland. Exactly the same applies in Iraq. The Kurds quite plainly want an independant homeland. They have shown in the past under Sadam that they are prepared to fight for it. The South is not too happy either. These people all want America out just as the UK wanted germany stopped. But they want their own independent countries within Iraq. I expect they will be quite happy to stop shooting if they get it. Just like the Irish and the Republic. And if this is mishandled it will also go on for years.

No doubt there are foriegners trying to stir up trouble. But nothing unusual about that. America itself was doing it while it was Sadam who had to stop the internal fighting. Probably the Americans were just as effective as other outsiders are now. Someone who understands Ireland should realise what happens when your neighbour wants to be part of a separate country.

 

[Freddie]

I have to believe your figures as i dont have any info to hand, but in Iraq the public who voted were being murdered shot and blown up and they still turned out to vote AGAINST the insurgents.

 

[Damocles]

If you want to check uk general election turnout just type a few keywords into google. Typically 70%.

Generally more people turn out when there is an important issue to vote about. Little more important then what is happening in Iraq right now, but I imagine it is just as unclear to them as it is to us exactly what they would be voting for.

I remember discussing ireland with an Irishman once. I said, 'in the north it is 51% protestant and 49% catholic and 1% or maybe 0.1% or even 0.01% who want to fight about it'. I know the exact percentages are not correct, but he reckoned I had the point exactly right. I think a much greater percentage of people in Iraq is severely ****ed with the Americans to the point of wanting to shoot back.

No one voted AGAINST the insurgents in Iraq. I doubt very much that any 'insurgent' candidate was standing or would have been allowed to stand by the Americans. People can only ever vote for the names on the ballot paper. An old COMMUNIST trick was to only allow party members to stand in the elections.

I don't understand your complaint that poverty in Ireland invalidates my comparison. Despite the oil Iraq is also pretty poor and in fact in debt. We have yet to see what happens to poverty there after they get independence because thay have not got it yet. And the Kurds have no prospect of it. It was really the Kurds I was comparing to the Irish, not the whole population. But there are other groups as well who might all like their own states. In Britain we too have scots nats and Welsh nationalists. Right now most people in these two countries are happy to part of the Uk. But if a load of soldiers went in shooting the place up then Scots and Welsh also might start to think more seriously about independence and burning down holiday homes belonging to englishmen.

The more you look at, the more the Uk is a mirror of Iraq. We are even an oil nation. Or at least an independant Scotland would be. Hmm.

 

[Freddie]

You are absolutley barking.

Britain is a mirror of Iraq?? Where do you live?? Even the Falls road is as quite as a graveyard nowadays.

When i said the people of Iraq voted against the Insurgants, i meant they voted for democracy, which is the opposite of what the Insurgants want.

I seriously think you ought to have a holiday and sought your head out. Then if you still want nothing to do with Britain or the British, you can go to Iraq and join your friends, you may know a few of them, as i wouldnt be suprised if you trained together in Afganistan.