Police State

[werealldoomed]

When i said the people of Iraq voted against the Insurgants, i meant they voted for democracy,

The people of Iraq didn't vote for democracy, they voted for governmental candidates. If the insurgents were not allowed to have candidiates, as Damocles said, then it would surely not have been a truly democratic vote anyway?

you can go to Iraq and join your friends, you may know a few of them, as i wouldnt be suprised if you trained together in Afganistan.

Regarding the parallels between Britain and Iraq, surely the above comment is a good example of the intolerance between social groups which has always been a fact of life in Iraq.

 

[Freddie]

When i said the people of Iraq voted against the Insurgants, i meant they voted for democracy,

The people of Iraq didn't vote for democracy, they voted for governmental candidates. If the insurgents were not allowed to have candidiates, as Damocles said, then it would surely not have been a truly democratic vote anyway?

you can go to Iraq and join your friends, you may know a few of them, as i wouldnt be suprised if you trained together in Afganistan.

Regarding the parallels between Britain and Iraq, surely the above comment is a good example of the intolerance between social groups which has always been a fact of life in Iraq.

I totally agree mate about the intollerence between groups. For example, someone like Damocles is allowed to come on here and spout such garbage as he has and be able to, but if anyone argues his point or even tells the truth, then they will be accused of all things even rasicsm, such as you are leaning towards in your reply above. To be honest i have never heard such twisted hog wash spouted on a forum about Britain and Ireland as examples for Iraq's troubles.

What gets me is people who winge and complain about the country they live in but at least you are able to here, cant say that for the other places mentioned.

As regards the Insurgents not having candidates, well Sadams old parties were represented in kind and that appears to be the majority of what these Insurgents are made up of, and they lost the vote.

His example of oil and Scotland, well that oil and gas was found with money from the British taxpayer, ok lets say they have had their money back now.Lets give Scotland a vote for independance and see if the people of Shetland want to stay with the Scots or the rest of Britain, or maybe Independant or even back with Norway which is what the people are anyway. Where would Scotland be then, oil is the only thing that the place has got going for it and without it it is being subsidised by the rest of Britain.

 

[werealldoomed]

someone like Damocles is allowed to come on here and spout such garbage as he has.

Are you saying that you should be allowed to but he shouldn't?

 

[Richardp]

I totally agree mate about the intollerence between groups. For example, someone like Damocles is allowed to come on here and spout such garbage as he has and be able to, but if anyone argues his point or even tells the truth, then they will be accused of all things even rasicsm, such as you are leaning towards in your reply above. To be honest i have never heard such twisted hog wash spouted on a forum about Britain and Ireland as examples for Iraq's troubles.

What gets me is people who winge and complain about the country they live in but at least you are able to here, cant say that for the other places mentioned.

As regards the Insurgents not having candidates, well Sadams old parties were represented in kind and that appears to be the majority of what these Insurgents are made up of, and they lost the vote.

His example of oil and Scotland, well that oil and gas was found with money from the British taxpayer, ok lets say they have had their money back now.Lets give Scotland a vote for independance and see if the people of Shetland want to stay with the Scots or the rest of Britain, or maybe Independant or even back with Norway which is what the people are anyway. Where would Scotland be then, oil is the only thing that the place has got going for it and without it it is being subsidised by the rest of Britain.

"What gets me is people who winge and complain about the country they live in"

a case of the pot calling the kettle black

"it is being subsidised by the rest of Britain"

and is this farm subsidises your talking about

 

[Freddie]

someone like Damocles is allowed to come on here and spout such garbage as he has.

Are you saying that you should be allowed to but he shouldn't?

No mate, it isnt up to me to say what he can and cant do, but i do think if anybody is allowed to give an opinion, then anybody else should be able to give theirs without being called racist or regarded as intollerent etc etc etc----next nit pick

 

[Freddie]

I totally agree mate about the intollerence between groups. For example, someone like Damocles is allowed to come on here and spout such garbage as he has and be able to, but if anyone argues his point or even tells the truth, then they will be accused of all things even rasicsm, such as you are leaning towards in your reply above. To be honest i have never heard such twisted hog wash spouted on a forum about Britain and Ireland as examples for Iraq's troubles.

What gets me is people who winge and complain about the country they live in but at least you are able to here, cant say that for the other places mentioned.

As regards the Insurgents not having candidates, well Sadams old parties were represented in kind and that appears to be the majority of what these Insurgents are made up of, and they lost the vote.

His example of oil and Scotland, well that oil and gas was found with money from the British taxpayer, ok lets say they have had their money back now.Lets give Scotland a vote for independance and see if the people of Shetland want to stay with the Scots or the rest of Britain, or maybe Independant or even back with Norway which is what the people are anyway. Where would Scotland be then, oil is the only thing that the place has got going for it and without it it is being subsidised by the rest of Britain.

"What gets me is people who winge and complain about the country they live in"

a case of the pot calling the kettle black

"it is being subsidised by the rest of Britain"

and is this farm subsidises your talking about

Hello Richard

 

[werealldoomed]

i do think if anybody is allowed to give an opinion, then anybody else should be able to give theirs without being called racist or regarded as intollerent

But what if they are racist or intollerant, it sounds that you are being overly pollitically correct by saying that we can't tell them what we think?

 

[david and julie]

i do think if anybody is allowed to give an opinion, then anybody else should be able to give theirs without being called racist or regarded as intollerent

But what if they are racist or intollerant, it sounds that you are being overly pollitically correct by saying that we can't tell them what we think?

But you don't know whether they are racist or not, you are making biased assumptions based on the fact that you disagree with them.

Several people on here have wrongly called me a racist. I now consider it a stock reply by people faced with a fact which they either don't like or more probably can't answer.

I have never seen a really bad,intended racist, comment on here. I am sure the Mods would remove them if they were.

 

[Freddie]

OK i dont know where Damocles comes from, how could i ?? and i care even less.

I replied to his post partly on Iraq and mainly on the stuff he wrote on Britain.

I bluntly said what i thought---i have that right i believe.

You have thrown the little tried and unsuccesfull nutmeg in to the ring, that when we dont believe or will accept your point of view you call us racists or intollerent of others---sorry mate it dont work.

I like to believe that people arent as stupid as you think they are that they will believe that crap. Just because people dont speak out dosent mean they believe you. i always speak out cause i have a big gob and i am not trying to convince anybody that my side is the right side.

For what its worth---i belive that the Iraq invasion was wrong and Tony lied through his teeth ( sorry Richard ) my personal view is that he thought he would bathe in the glory that adorned Maggie Thatcher after the Falklands.

So on a couple of points me and Damocles actually agree on something, on his other stuff i think he is out with the fairies---Oops there i go again, must be that intollerant racist in me.

 

[Damocles]

What a load of quotations.

I am not trying to say that Britain is a terrible place to live. Quite the opposite. I am saying that Iraq has many similarities to Britain and like Britain has different cultural groups inside it. And like Britain everything could sort itself out, just so long as everyone shows good will, and stops shooting. This especially includes those who have the biggest guns and have fired the greatest number of bullets.

We have had a civil war running permanently in ireland for hundreds of years. Ever since we invaded it, in fact. It took the Irish most of that time to finally get most of their country back. we have nearly solved our little local difficulties. With luck the future deaths from the troubles in Ireland will only be measured in hundreds. Iraq is not so fortunate, but no one should despair.

We solved our problem by giving up the idea of ruling Ireland against the wishes of its people.

Scottish oil? You are saying that because Adolf Hitler invaded the Russian Caucuses in WW2 and paid for new oil wells, then he should have been allowed to keep them? Likewise England has a right to keep all the Scottish oil because it sold licenses to private oil companies who then paid even more money in taxes on their profits, to the Parliament in London? So because Westminster has made hugely more from Scottish oil than Scotland has, then as the greatest gainer it becomes the owner?

Like, you think the Americans have a similar idea about oil in Iraq?

Where am I from? My mums family were yeoman farmers, and my dad's claimed to be descendants of the Norman invaders. I think that makes me just about as English as you can get. And in a terribly terribly old fashioned english sort of way I do not think that the people with the biggest guns should be respected most.

 

[Freddie]

Hello Damocles, i wondered when you would post. Listen mate i dont want to argue with you, but some facts.

Scottish oil and gas. At the time it was found, there was no real need for it as you couldnt give the stuff away. It was pushed by a few politicians with tax payers money as at the time it was betond and not worth it for oil companies to invest in. A lot of the wells are in deep water and hostile seas, revolutionary at the time. In those days the tendancy was to drive into the desert and dig a hole ----bingo---what the hell would anybody want to dig in hundreds of feet of cold stormy water for ???

The Shetlands and the Orkneys people are not British but Norweigion. The Shetlands and the area where the oil was found is actually far closer to Norway than Scotland, and is in fact outside British sea area except for the fact that Scotland attained shall we say the Shetlands a few hundred years ago ( Falklands alll over again ) If that oil was found today there would be one hell of a row as to who it belongs too.

So when you talk of independance it could get a bit more complecated as regards the oil revenue.

 

[Damocles]

Now funny you should mention that. In the reign of Edward Heath, I believe. Scottish oil was being developed just at the time the country was suffering regular blackouts because the miners had gone on strike. Did someone decide that a bit of oil might just put them in their place and keep the lights on? And just about the time that Opec got its act together and produced a MASSIVE rise in oil prices. Arguably saved the UK economy.

My definition of nationality is which country the inhabitants want to belong to. If this is the same as the one running their country, then fine. If not, then its exploding pipelines time.

Ireland was about the English deciding to make their kingdom bigger mby conquest. My history is indeed vague, was it queen Elizabeth I or the stuarts who conquered ireland? A little before WWI. Everything after was picking up the pieces. By analogy, Iraq is hardly at the post invasion stage. The local lords to run it on behalf of the conquerors have not even been appointed yet.

Maybe Ireland nowadays has something to do with criminals, but that is just a name for a terrorist who does not have any supporters. In Iraq the numbers of the freedom fighters are growing not shrinking.

Incidentally, I mostly use the words 'freedom fighters' to make the point that this is what they call themselves. Whether they really are depends what the other Iraqis think. It has virtually nothing to do with what the Americans or other Arabs think. The Americans undoubtedly consider them to be mortal enemies. The Americans describe them as 'insurgents' to give the impression that they are really outsiders. I very much doubt that they are. Myself, I think it is not my war and should not have been made my problem to solve.

 

[Freddie]

The first North Sea oil was found in the 60's, i think even developed before the 1973 oil rise, but it was the aptly timed miners strike which bought on the blackouts, that is why Maggie set out to destroy dear Arthur in 1984, i think he deserved it anyway, anybody with a Bobby Charlton hair do deserves to have his union destroyed.

Who the Shetlanders vote for in an independance vote would be very interesting, they could be the richest island on the planet or vote to stop with England, either way Scotland would be finnished.

Dont know about Iraq, one thing though it cant be about oil for America, they dont need it, they have theior own and soon to be much more from Alaska. Europe is desperate for oil, has no reserves of her own except for Briton, and China has dug up most of her country in search for oil but has found no new reserves worth speaking of.
Also there is enough room in America and Canada to produce plenty of oil from rape which can be used for fuel, so why people think America needs Iraq's oil is beyond me.

 

[david and julie]

Now funny you should mention that. In the reign of Edward Heath, I believe. Scottish oil was being developed just at the time the country was suffering regular blackouts because the miners had gone on strike. Did someone decide that a bit of oil might just put them in their places

But it isn't Scottish oil it belongs to the whole of the UK and Scot-Nat was almost unheard of at the time. Ted Heath was a very fair man he was not vindictive in any way. Besides it is ridiculous to suggest a government could find, finance and extract oil quick enough to put the miners in their place.

In reality coal is filthy dirty, cancer causing and produced horrendous smog and fog, I would think more people have died through this stuff than Ireland and Iraq put together.

 

[Damocles]

America does need it. They import oil. Their own production may be massive but it is going down while their consumption is going up.

Anyway, it is the price which matters. And this depends on the world oil market. Not enough oil, and the price goes up. And boy do American voters scream when their petrol prices go up.

Sure you can grow oil, but what is the price? What they want is not just oil, but cheap oil. Like the sort that just shoots out of the ground in a nice sunny climate.

The Uk is run by England. If there had been no act of union combining the scottish and English parliaments, just who would now be getting the oil revenues?

I am sure pollution has killed many more people than Iraq or the Irish wars. But coal was the basis of the industrial revolution. If there had been no coal then world poulation would be very much less than it is now. And probably there would be a lot fewer trees too.