Pressure dropping and expansion vessel howling....!

[kipperphill]

Dear Geniuses (Genii?)

I have just had a new boiler/unvented cylinder fitted in my loft (pictures below - it is a Glowworm Ultracom SXI2 and a Stelflow 210 cylinder). All is good and it works OK, but I have two problems:

(1) Since it was installed (four weeks ago), the pressure has hit zero three times. It does not appear to drop in a regular pattern - and it seems to be after a long period of inactivity that it suddenly drops to zero (e.g. 3 - 4 hours of no activity). When we have the heating on constant (most days) the pressure does not seem to drop. After the first time, the installer said it was probably an airlock, and to top up the pressure (it jumped from 0 bar to 1.1 bar as soon as I put in some pressure). I did that. In the last two days, it has happened twice again. Each time I have topped up the pressure, and it jumped from 0 bar to 0.6 bar almost immediately. Do you have any hints and tips of how to deal with this? I have been unable to get hold of the installer over Christmas.

(2) the expansion vessel (on the left, just behind the cylinder in the pictures) makes a really loud and horrible noise when the hot water is turned on full after a period of not using the hot water. It is a long (3-5 second) loud trumped/vibration noise. The installer mentioned that he might swap the [regulator] and the vessel around (not sure what this means or if I have it right), and that it might be that we need to upgrade the 15mm pipework to the boiler from the mains to 22mm. To be fair, he mentioned this might be needed at the time of install and we agreed to try without. Again, any hints and tips on this one?

All help very gratefully received.

Happy new year!

Cheers
Phillip


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[slapper]

From what I can see it looks like decent installation,therefore IMO you would better discussing this with the Installer,rather than coming on here

 

[mysteryman]

If you mean the central heating system pressure, then it sounds as if your boiler expansion vessel pre-charge pressure is either too high or too low, or the diaphragm has failed. As already stated, you need to contact your installer.

 

[kipperphill]

Thanks for the replies. Installer has been unavailable over Christmas (I think he is abroad) and I wanted to understand it myself. I also think he may need the help as he wasn't too sure about the noise problem.

Yes I am talking about CH pressure in (1). In (2) it is mains pressure related I think.

Cheers all

KP

 

[Agile]

Thanks for the replies.

Installer has been unavailable over Christmas (I think he is abroad) and I wanted to understand it myself. I also think he may need the help as he wasn't too sure about the noise problem.

KP

I think that its totally irresponsible for an installer to disapear over christmas and leave you without any emergency cover. He should be named and shamed!

I have been available to answer my phone at any time over the holiday period and if I go abroad I always have my phone with me. Roaming is available virtually anywhere in the world. On Monday night I had a call at 0053hrs from someone with a problem who wanted me to attend. I was able to tell him what to do over the phone and all free of charge.

The installation does look quite neat but as far as I can see has wrapped felt insulation which is a very old fashioned material to use and has an ability to burn although it should be fire retardant.

Loss of pressure would normally mean a leak!

Was the installer correctly Gas Registered and did he complete the Benchmark Certificate and notify the installation to Building Control which results in you getting posted a Certificate?

Or was he a non gas registered and non domiciled person who undercuts UK based installers because he does not have to buy property at UK prices?

Tony

 

[Gasman77]

Tony, I'm afraid I'm about to shatter your thoughts about this industry....Some of us RGI's DO have a life, some of us DO go on holiday over the xmas period, some of us DO turn our phone off overnight.

When I install a boiler, do I offer a 24 hour service? no of course not, if customers want someone to come out to their problems any time day or night, they need to pay the extra cash and go with someone like BG - I will be ill/on holiday or otherwise not be able to attend sometimes!

So now you know - some of us have families, not just a old flea bitten cat called Hector and a 30 year old Austin allegro to run.

You should get out more mate instead of slagging off all other installers, and how superhuman you are. sad, sad man.

 

[kipperphill]

Again, thank you for the replies.

Re. questions: Yes he is registered and yes I am getting a certificate. I have used him for years. I don't expect people to be available over Christmas, but I was hoping he might pick up! (expectation vs hope!!)

Anything I can do re. finding leak (although the intermittent nature of it losing pressure led me to believe it would not be a leak) - no patches obvious in any ceilings, no pipes or valves leaking that I can see. That leaves under floorboards, in concrete floor and behind walls...

Please don't let this turn into a slanging match about quality of installers...

Cheers
KP

 

[Nige F]

From what I can see it looks like decent installation,therefore IMO you would better discussing this with the Installer,rather than coming on here

Indeed But look @ the lagging I reckon it`s air - because I converted my awful - central heating to sealed because of the air problems . Yet still I have found ocasionally I am pumping up an air buble . Remember air will compress then as it dissipates through a auto air vent - the pressure drops

 

[doitall]

The noise is connected to the white expansion vessel.

And on that subject, one can't see from the pic but it don't look right.

Be good to have a better pic of the left hand side.

 

[kipperphill]

Hi - I will take another photo later on when I get in

All there is, is a pipe out to the expansion vessel which is mounted vertically on the wall.

The installer mentioned something about swapping the order of the reducer valve/vessel when I mentioned the noise - but that means nothing to me.

Cheers
KP

 

[kipperphill]

Hello again

Here are some more images.

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Regarding issue (2) - It looks like the order of things from the mains water pipe is: PRV (3 bar) and pressure release (one unit), then the expansion vessel T, scaling unit, drain off, then into the cylinder.

Thanks for any help.

KP

 

[mysteryman]

The installer is resposible at law for twelve months for the quality of goods and services supplied by him. Equipment manufacturers will make good defects caused by faulty manufacture of their products, but the fact remains that the installer is the person responsible for the satisfactory operation of the installation.

 

[kipperphill]

Thanks.

I don't think I'll have much luck claiming for a leak in my existing pipework though (if that is what it is!).

The installer will be coming back, but I have been unable to get in touch with him as yet (I suspect he is covered in factor 50 lying on a sun bed spending my money )

For some reason, the pressure is now dropping about 0.4bar a day. Could it be connected to the fact I have finally turned the heating down so it isn't on constantly?

What does 0.4bar a day actually mean, a few drops, or is it p***ing out somewhere? I cannot find a leak.

Any clues on the howling?

Cheers all - I know there are lots of competing posts, so grateful for all help.

KP

 

[electronicsuk]

What does 0.4bar a day actually mean, a few drops, or is it p***ing out somewhere? I cannot find a leak.

Have you tried watching the gauge as the heating system starts to warm up? If there's a problem with the boiler expansion vessel and the pressure is rising to 3 bar or more, it will be escaping via the pressure relief valve, which is there as a safety feature to prevent excessive pressure buildup. It would explain why turning the system on and off causes more pressure loss, as if it's left turned on then the pressure will level off at around 3 bar, the PRV will close, and it won't drop until the system cools down again.

This was mentioned very much earlier on in the thread, and if it is the case, there's not a lot you can do about it without getting the installer back.

 

[kipperphill]

Thanks for the tip. The pressure is only going up 0.3bar when the heating is on, and 0.2bar when the hot water is on. It has never gone over 2 bar when I have been watching it.