Principal Elevation

[IainMcKenzie]

Hoping someone can advise, I live in a house that is exactly the same as the ones identified in the links;


http://www.npt.gov.uk/PDF/permitted_development_for_householders_technical_guidance.pdf (fig2 page 5)


http://www.pkc.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=21718&p=0 (fig2 page 9)

We had a loft conversion done under PD and a neighbour complained and as such the local council is going through a process of trying to say it is on a principal elevation and asking for a planning application (which they have already said will be refused,)

The issue is we live in England and although the wording is exactly the same they are maintaining that it is what it is and there is nothing that can be done.... I can't find any similar illustrations from English regs to highlife it, just the box outlines which are not helpful!

Has anyone had any experience of this situation?

Thanks in advance.

Iain

 

[Brad Ninch]

Not sure I understand the issue. If I am right from your comments and the illustrations that the planners accept that the elevation facing the road is the principal elevation (as one would expect) in what way has the loft conversion impacted on the principal elevation?

 

[IainMcKenzie]

Sorry Brad,

Our architect said that the gable end is the PE (as illustrated) and the loft conversion (which is a dorma) is on the side elevation, the council are saying because the side elevation has a front door it's the PE and therefore the dorma has to come down (worst case but that's the line they are taking).

Iain

 

[tony1851]

Just because the main entrance door is on the side elevation, that does not make it the principal elevation.

They need to consider other factors and it is generally down to commonsense. Usually the principal elevation (more often than not the elevation facing the road) has more carefully considered detailing

Also, the windows of the more important rooms are usually on the principal elevation; kitchen/bathroom/utility windows are usually on a side or rear elevation.

How about pipework? Are there any waste and soil pipes on the same elevation as the entrance door? this again would show that it is a secondary
elevation.

This is probably a case of council officers taking too narrow a view and enjoying their little power trip of making you worry.

Personally, I would ignore their demands and leave the ball in their court. If they are so convinced they are right, they should take enforcement
procedings. LPAs only do that if they know 100% they are in the right. Don't, whatever you do, take it down.


PS just noted in the original post that the LPA has asked that a planning application be submitted, and that it will be refused. Do NOT make a planning application because they will be taking your £172 fee for nothing. You will be in a better position by not making an application.

 

[IainMcKenzie]

Hi Tony,

Thanks, there is only secondary Windows (WC) on that side, extractor fan (2) and a door, the house is exactly as is illustration with living room and bedroom windows on gable end, the wifey is stressed!

Hoping to hear from the Architect re progress.

Everything I have sent the planning enforcement has been answered with, we have made out decision...

To the point where I pointed out that our boundary order would be changing and would that mean that half our garden in the back is now our front? I didn't get an answer to that!

Iain

 

[Brad Ninch]

There can only be one principal elevation. In most cases the principal elevation would be the elevation facing the road. If the architect (a professional) has told you that the gable end is the principal elevation you have a professional view to rely on. You could tell the planners that you have received this professional advice and ask them to state explicitly why the elevation facing the road is in their view not the principal elevation. I think you are still in the clear under permitted development Class B (assuming you have not exceeded the highest point of the original roof (para B.1(a), you have not exceeded the volume limits (para B.1(c), there is not a verandah (para B.1(d) and you are not in a Listed Building or a National Park (para B.1(e)). The published DCLG "Permitted development for householders; Technical Guidance" which is readily available to download explains what is allowed for "the enlargement of a house consisting of an addition or alteration to its roof" - see page 31. Class B provides "permitted development rights for the enlargement of a house consisting of an addition or alteration to its roof. Paragraph B.1(b) is the critical one that you should point out to the planners - it explains that permitted development is not permitted if "any part of the dwelling house would, as a result of the works, extend beyond the plane of any existing roof slope which forms the principal elevation of the dwelling house AND fronts a highway". Even if they do insist that the road elevation is not the principal elevation, since the principal elevation does not front a highway, the exclusion referred to in B.1(a) does not apply. Best of luck.

 

[^woody^]

Where is the front door to Buckingham Palace?

 

[angelboy]

Where is the front door to Buckingham Palace?

Why, have they had a loft conversion as well?

 

[angelboy]

I'm sure you've already read this (start at p31)

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/100806_PDforhouseholders_TechnicalGuidance.pdf

Who are your council? They might have their own technical guidance hiding on their website somewhere which might help.

 

[angelboy]

If you read this planning appeal from the planning inspectorate, point 8 on page 2 states that there is no statutory definition of the principle elevation other than 'in most cases, the principal elevation will be that which fronts the main highway and contains the main architectural features'.

http://www.rossendale.gov.uk/planx_downloads/2011-0001_APPEAL_DECISION.pdf


Looks like it's down to the councils interpretation.

If they choose to enforce then you can appeal this decision but you'll have to ensure you have a good argument as to why you think that the gable is the principle elevation. I think you might need to speak to a planning consultant.

 

[tony1851]

I'm sure you've already read this (start at p31)

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/100806_PDforhouseholders_TechnicalGuidance.pdf

Who are your council? They might have their own technical guidance hiding on their website somewhere which might help.

If they have their own guidance, it's worth diddly squat as his council's officials are clearly clueless.

I've always maintained that the first rule of Planning is this: if you want to know about Planning matters, don't ask a
council planning official

 

[Brad Ninch]

Because Clause B.1(b) of the 'Permitted development for householders: Technical Guidance' says that permitted development is not permitted if "any part of the dwelling house would, as a result of the works, extend beyond the plane of any existing roof slope which forms the principal elevation of the dwelling house and fronts a highway" - it does not really matter in this case which elevation the council asserts is the principal elevation because the enlargement has not taken place on an elevation that is both the principal elevation and the elevation that fronts the highway!

Read more: //www.diynot.com/diy/threads/principal-elevation.446854/#ixzz3ryXklq3n

 

[angelboy]

Because Clause B.1(b) of the 'Permitted development for householders: Technical Guidance' says that permitted development is not permitted if "any part of the dwelling house would, as a result of the works, extend beyond the plane of any existing roof slope which forms the principal elevation of the dwelling house and fronts a highway" - it does not really matter in this case which elevation the council asserts is the principal elevation because the enlargement has not taken place on an elevation that is both the principal elevation and the elevation that fronts the highway!

Read more: //www.diynot.com/diy/threads/principal-elevation.446854/#ixzz3ryXklq3n

.....and.....

In most cases, the principal elevation will be that part of the house which fronts (directly or at an angle) the main highway serving the house (the main highway will be the one that sets the postcode for the house concerned). It will usually contain the main architectural features such as main bay windows or a porch serving the main entrance to the house. Usually, but not exclusively, the principal elevation will be what is understood to be the front of the house (http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/100806_PDforhouseholders_TechnicalGuidance.pdf pg 11)

I think It should be left to a professional planning consultant to effectively argue the reasoning. They might have some precedent that they could apply to this situation.

I did once come across a forum for council planners where they would ask for advice how to follow particular policies. Let me see if I can dig out the link, might be useful. Give me a few days though.