qualified vs"time served"

[archie84]

hi everyone,
iv been working with a builder joiner company for the last 3 and a half years full time on the cards and subbing for him for 3 years prior to that while i was self employed as a property maintenance service.

i was asked to join the company full time years ago and decided it was the best option at the time due to family comitments and a mortage to pay.

i have never been to collage to learn a trade but i do everything in the company from diging the footings right through to the finishing touches exept plumbing and electrics. we use subbies for that side.

i have allot of pride in the work i do and will only do it if its done right mutch to the annoyance of fellow staff that just want to crack on. Not wanting to blow my own trumpet and come over big headed, but i often have to ree do work the boss has done sadly.

my question is when dose experience match qualifications or even exceed them?

i know you need cards for sites but i never work on sites.

 

[Doggit]

It's not a straighforward question, and therefore you can't give (or get) a straightforward answer.

Some people have experience, but still can't do a great job, whilst a lot of people have qualifications from these basic training companies, and also can't do a very good job yet. I think you have to have pride in your work, and a good sense of ethics, and that doesn't come from either experience, or from qualifications.

So why do you ask a question that you should know the answer anyway.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

And some people have plenty of letters after their name and a ton of experience but are still crap!

 

[Iamchamps]

Evidence rather than experience I think is more appropriate. If someone is coming to do a job for me say fit a bathroom and they say they have been doing it for 20 years to me that means nothing. I want to see evidence of the work done

 

[archie84]

i was just wondering if i was to go back to being self employed one day, would people talk "hes got no qualification". or would they see experience first.
also if i was to apply for a job with you, would you look twice? or is it as you said

 

[ericmark]

Some how, some way, you need to show you have a warrantee of skill, be it a reference, and apprenticeship deed, or exam passed it really does not matter, but you needs something to show you can do the job.

Most trades have bits which are reasonable straight forward, and bits which really need the skill, and it is only after seeing it all go wrong that you realise how important the skill is. I have seen joinery go wrong, where shuttering has failed, the work to correct was well over the original work and this is a problem of course.

Most engineering trades and joinery is an engineering trade have some complex maths with some areas of the trade, using experience often the tradesman can get away without maths, I am an electrician, I will look at a job and from experience realise it likely needs 6mm² cable, however after fitting the cable, the standard tests will confirm or show up my error, it does not need to actually fail before any error is seen.

Joinery however as far as I have seen does not have a non destructive method to test what has been built, we hope the staircase, or shutting will hold, but we can't really test before it is put into use, so I suspect the college training and calculations are if anything more important than with my trade.

So the question is, how can you show you have the skill, without some sort of paperwork?

 

[Terrywookfit]

A piece of paper proves fook all !!
Many Plumbers / Gas fitters are fookin clueless !!

 

[motorbiking]

As a consumer, it really depends on the complexity of the job. Mostly, I'm looking to see that you have the knowledge and experience based on similar jobs. For me a good builder can pick up on design or structural issues that the architect may have missed. Can foresee building services issues that may arise and resolve them, has a good network of quality people that he can rely on.

Being able to manage others is key. So many good builders are let down by subbies.

Also don't be greedy with your subcontractors. If you are being paid a decent wedge to do a high end job, don't hire some f**cktard who is clueless but cheap.

 

[catlad]

Whilst currently working for your company start taking pictures daily of the
work you are doing and you will soon build a catalogue of images.

 

[noseall]

I am brilliant at everything I do. That's because I have buckets full of experience and I have Builders OCD.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

We have one apprentice who is attending a college where his tutor(s) have told him that at "level 2 you are a qualified carpenter". He may well be qualified when he gets his NVQ2, but his NVQ will be worth jack **** when it comes to actually doing the job. What is needed to produce a chippie is qualifications (preferably level 3) together with experience. And by that I mean a couple of years spent with a good tradesman as an improver after finishing your apprenticeship. As others have said, though, bits of paper often mean naff all out in the real world (and may be why we seem to go through agency joiners at a rate of knots).

iv been working with a builder joiner company for the last 3 and a half years full time on the cards and subbing for him for 3 years prior to that while i was self employed as a property maintenance service.

So here's the thing - could you set-out and build a cut roof with dormers from scratch? or can you fit a kitchen unaided? or do you understand the difference between a structural stud wall and a non-structural wall - especially if you need to make on-site changes to, say, a Victorian house? Those are things that any apprentice should have been exposed to. The thing about going to college is that you get the theory which you later call upon to do the job. If you've only ever worked for one firm then I'd hazard a guess that your knowledge base is probably a bit narrow. That would be my biggest concern in employing you

my question is when dose experience match qualifications or even exceed them?

Ideally you need both the theory and practical experience, but TBH I'd be happier employing an experienced, unqualified guy with references and a body of work over employing a well-qualified youngster with no references or body of work. In reality, I do give more credence to references than bits of paper

i know you need cards for sites but i never work on sites.

The thing about the card system is that it ensures that you have a minimum standard of theoretical qualification (i.e. NVQ 2) together with a smattering of site safety knowledge. It still doesn't prove that you can do the job, though. Frankly, I don't think that doing an OSAT NVQ2 in site carpentry (which takes as little as a few days) would do you any harm at all. It might even point out areas of weak knowledge/poor technique as well as giving you the bits of paper you'll need to get a CSCS card. And all medium to large sites require them these days, so not having one simply restricts your employment prospects in the longer term

Here's the rub. I'm in my 60s and I doubt that there's more than a few days go past when I don't feel the need to look stuff up, or when I don't learn something new (even at the cost of analysing others' mistakes, sometimes at the cost of my own). I read everything I can get my hands on to do with the trade (and always have done). In feel that once I stop learning, as some old "duffers" around me seem to do, then I really should pack up my tools and go home because I'll be NBG to anyone.

 

[Aquaheat]

What J&K said.

Good post J&K concise and pretty much sums up site work and the industry as a whole regardless of trade.

Jon

 

[Toledo Roofer]

hi everyone,
iv been working with a builder joiner company for the last 3 and a half years full time on the cards and subbing for him for 3 years prior to that while i was self employed as a property maintenance service.

i was asked to join the company full time years ago and decided it was the best option at the time due to family comitments and a mortage to pay.

i have never been to collage to learn a trade but i do everything in the company from diging the footings right through to the finishing touches exept plumbing and electrics. we use subbies for that side.

i have allot of pride in the work i do and will only do it if its done right mutch to the annoyance of fellow staff that just want to crack on. Not wanting to blow my own trumpet and come over big headed, but i often have to ree do work the boss has done sadly.

my question is when dose experience match qualifications or even exceed them?

i know you need cards for sites but i never work on sites.

Experience always wins over education. You can have all the degrees in the world and still be horrible at your job. This is why there are so many hands on learning opportunities in the skilled trades. However, like with anything else, you will be judged on the available information. Keep a portfolio, a resume and references list. When I am looking to hire someone, I look at experience and verifiable references first.