Question for the electricians

[Starspark1]

Read his post again. The conditions of 543.2.6 can not be met with an old unknown water pipe.

The regulation is intended for the steel framework of a building etc.

If you're so sure it is acceptable, tell us the regulation that says it is.

I accept that in this case the conditions may not be able to be met.
All i was doing was suggesting alternatives and or my thinking is that so terrible??
I am not so sure it is acceptable it was you and Vibro that were so sure it wasnt and for my future development and definitive peace of mind i would like you to point me in the direction of this reg and for the third time you have not or are unable to.
And i take it you now agree to my reasoning of the fact a bond or pipe could be cut despite being told not to etc due to the many variables that could occur??

 

[RF Lighting]

You have to find a regulation that proves it is safe and acceptable to use. Otherwise we could use any old thing to provide the bonding to this tap.

The regulations do not specifically prohibit the use of a bit of angle iron welded to some scaffolding bolted to some guttering and half a meter of pulled tight chain, but we still know that would not be acceptable.

I don't quite understand what you mean by your last sentence.

 

[vibrobullit407]

It is not my fault that there is a difference of opinion here bs7671 is open to interpretation.

There is no interpretation in this situation i'm afraid. You can not confirm the condition of the pipe, what protection is in place and the csa equivalent for the min csa bonding conductor due to not knowing all the construction of the pipe.

In this situation it is shear madness to think that this is acceptable with all the unknowns involved. To presume that a main bonding conductor is suitable with out knowing that it is, is just not good enough. This is a brand new bonding conductor that would installed with a large section of unknown quantity. Would you be happy installing it in this manner! I certainly would not!

And on your last sentence starspark1, any one can cut any conductor if they wanted. Doesn't mean that they should or that it is acceptable does it! You are now basically saying that what's the point in bonding as the connection can be broken! come on!

Just out of interest do you work in the electrical trade?

 

[Starspark1]

Continuity Test?

You wrote-
That doesn't prove the condition. You would get contiuity through one strand off a 0.5mm² flex. Doesn't make it a reliable connection

Can i just point out with this on thinking about it that no test really prove the condition of any type of cable for instance a cable buried in a wall could have its outer sheath damaged and possibly an inner sheath and all tests could still be satisfactory you would never know until you dig it out and look at it properly or it causes tripping? same as if the water pipe was damaged it would leak and a pressure test could be done to confirm some sort of condition??

Whats to stop someone cutting a bonding conductor?Whats to stop someone replacing a part of pipe a bond is on and not reattaching the bond??

RF wrote - Nothing, but I expect most people wouldn't as they realise it is forming part of a bonding arrangement. It's going to be entirely not obvious that a bit of pipe is.

Are you seriously suggesting a normal everyday person has any idea what a bonding arrangement is??

and as i said - As for the labelling that means nothing to a lot of people if they want to cut/remove etc etc they will regardless!! example on a much more dangerous scale the copper thieves stealing from sub stations etc!
Also the label is only at the end whats to say they wont cut it somewhere through its run as last time i looked earth wire does not conform with bs951.

And Vibro im not saying whats the point in bonding as the connection can be broken at all you said that.
Im merely stating that if someone wants to cut it they will same as everything one thing you can never predict is a human being and the stupidity of some if not all of us sometimes. As i said no one is perfect.

I have never once said this was acceptable i was making a suggestion infact more of a question i never once said i would install it in this manner i was making an observation/questioning my statement.

 

[vibrobullit407]

Can i just point out with this on thinking about it that no test really prove the condition of any type of cable for instance a cable buried in a wall could have its outer sheath damaged and possibly an inner sheath and all tests could still be satisfactory you would never know until you dig it out and look at it properly or it causes tripping?

Insulation resistance test!

Do you honestly believe that the copper thieves don't know the dangers? As you have said in your post you can not account for stupidity. Some one can cut through the main bonding conductors but they could also cut through a live cable or cpc, whats the difference? Are you saying they should be allowed. Your argument makes no sense!

Also do you not know about how many unknown leaks there are in the uk. Do you think that every leak would be like a fountain? A water pipe could be totally split and the water could drain off somewhere else!

I'll ask again, are you working in the trade?

 

[Starspark1]

So your saying a damaged outer sheath or even with a nick on an inner core wouldn't give an acceptable insulation resistance reading? Cos I certainly guarantee it would providing obviously it isn't shorting to something else however that cable is damaged!

Im not saying they should be allowed again you said that all I am saying is if someone wants to remove a bond or cut it somewhere along the cable run then they will why is that so hard to understand?

If the pipe was totally split then the pressure of the water would be more than likely decrease or nothing would come out! Like I said a pressure test would establish this. And we are not talking about a water leak on a main network we are talking about an outhouse tap that I think would be noticed!

Sorry I do indeed work in the electrical trade if that's what you mean.

 

[vibrobullit407]

Would you be able to carry out a pressure test on the water pipe. Do you carry the tools and equipment with you just in case you need it? Do you honestly think that you would notice by a visual flow rate of the water from the tap given it's not your place of residence and not being able to monitor over time?

With regard to cutting the bonding conductor I still don't know what you are getting at. People should not be messing with the bonding conductor at all unless competent to do so.

Lets get back to the main issue here, you still seem to be arguing the point that you think it is acceptable to use an unknown conductor buried underground, in an unknown condition, in a location with unknown protection against mechanical damage as a main bonding conductor.

Your argument seems to be that some one could break a main bonding conductor. There is no way of testing any cable for condition. People will have the same knowledge whether you've used this pipe or a more usual bonding method i.e one that complies. And finally that there is no regulation that says you can't do this, even though BS7671 is an ACOP and gives guidance on what is acceptable. As RF states with his example on the chain link bonding method, it does not state the ridiculous!

Your reasoning's just don't stand up. In fact they are down right crazy. Why you keep pushing your idea forward that this is a viable option is beyond me. Why don't you just admit your suggestion was wrong and stop trying to justify it by clutching at straws. I think you would gain more respect for that instead of this pointless endeavor.

 

[Starspark1]

Again at no point did i say my suggestion was correct i merely stated it was a SUGGESTION.
I do not keep pushing it forward i am just merely pointing out that there are many variables on many things regarding electrical work it is never plain black and white and BS7671 is open to interpretation of which you dont seem to accept. I actually think you do accept it but are trying to bait me which is unfortunate.

You seem to have ignored the fact now about the insulation resistance test are you know agreeing that perhaps you were incorrect?

All i am stating with the bonding is that indeed you are correct people should not be messing with bonding conductors but they do!! Are you really honestly telling me you have never came across a disconnected or damaged bond somewhere? As i have all to reguarly.

To be honest regarding this issue it has been an excellent debate of which i agree i was wrong in some parts just as you are yourself on other posts as well as on this one regarding the above but i now feel you are just trying to bait me which is really unecessary.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

No - true - you did not say it was correct:

RMS,

You have given the copper equivalent of the armoured which is 8.86mm if you measure the resistance of the copper pipe in the outhouse back to the MET use this resistance and convert this into its copper equivalent. If this value plus the 8.86mm exceeds the 10mm which i trust it would then this would comply with BS7671??

Are you saying that BS7671 states that the use of a metallic water pipe can be used as a main bonding conductor? If so can you please refer me to this regulation.

Are you saying you cant?

You asked if it was because you don't understand the regulations.

You "suggested" it because you don't understand the regulations.

You've carried on wriggling hoping to find a way out of it that doesn't leave you looking like someone who doesn't understand the regulations.

Sorry I do indeed work in the electrical trade if that's what you mean.

Maybe it's time for a career change.

 

[Starspark1]

Thanks ban they say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
I notice no technical input from yourself though just attempted ridicule. That seems to happen quite often from yourself. Is it to make yourself feel bigger? more important? Whilst still lacking some technical knowledge?? Princeofdarkness certainly had the measure of you though and could certainly push your buttons though eh?

It says here //www.diynot.com/forums/general-discussion/who-is-ban-all-sheds.305578/page-2 that you vowed never to return some time ago is this true? So REALLY why did you? Sick of being unimportant and no one listening to you in the real world that you had to come back??

I completely agree i dont know it all seemingly unlike yourself but at least i enquire to try and better my imperfections and as stated earlier sarcasm or whatever else like that certainly does not help and only deters people.
They didnt ridicule you in a previous life on the IET! Well maybe a bit!
one example http://www.theiet.org/forums/forum/...d=17569&STARTPAGE=1&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear
I particulary like the quotes seemingly about you which state;

Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. - Eric Hoffer

If you want to lift yourself up, lift up someone else. - Booker T. Washington

Is that when you realised you were out your depth and so decided to come on a diy forum to weed out a few people a less knowledgable than yourself to ridicule to make yourself feel better? Did Mummy and Daddy not love you enough??

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Thanks ban they say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

I thought it was a bun is the lowest form of wheat?

I notice no technical input from yourself though just attempted ridicule. That seems to happen quite often from yourself. Is it to make yourself feel bigger? more important? Whilst still lacking some technical knowledge?? Princeofdarkness certainly had the measure of you though and could certainly push your buttons though eh?

I'm not sure that he had the measure of anything except how to be revolting.

It says here //www.diynot.com/forums/general-discussion/who-is-ban-all-sheds.305578/page-2 that you vowed never to return some time ago is this true? So REALLY why did you? Sick of being unimportant and no one listening to you in the real world that you had to come back??

No, I realised that there are still people here who need advice and guidance.

Like you for example.

I completely agree i dont know it all seemingly unlike yourself but at least i enquire to try and better my imperfections and as stated earlier sarcasm or whatever else like that certainly does not help and only deters people.
They didnt ridicule you in a previous life on the IET! Well maybe a bit!
one example http://www.theiet.org/forums/forum/...d=17569&STARTPAGE=1&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

I have to say that I'm flattered that you are so interested in what I say and do that you've taken the trouble to do so much research. You are quite right to want as much of my wisdom as possible, but don't let it spill over into stalking, there's a good chap.

I particulary like the quotes seemingly about you which state;

Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. - Eric Hoffer

If you want to lift yourself up, lift up someone else. - Booker T. Washington

Oh - and don't take too much notice of stuff said by criminals and unprofessional electricians who did not appreciate their criminality and lack of professionalism being criticised.

Is that when you realised you were out your depth and so decided to come on a diy forum to weed out a few people a less knowledgable than yourself to ridicule to make yourself feel better? Did Mummy and Daddy not love you enough??

I would advise against choosing psychology as a new career.

 

[Starspark1]

All that aside then Ban are you actually going to contribute any technical advice/opinions on this topic?

What is has proved is that BS7671 does not prohibit the use of a water pipe (extraneous conductive part) to be used as a bonding conductor providing certain criteria are met as RMS stated.

My interpretation of this is that compliance can be achieved by confirming the integrity of the pipe work by means of testing.

You dont see the DNO digging up roads to confirm the integrity of there cables without first testing them.

When you lose an earth to a house it is only discovered by testing in the same way that bonding is confirmed on all test sheets stipulated by BS7671.

If the integrity of the water pipe was lost then it would be discovered when testing.

None of this is a fail safe science earths are lost all the time and the DNO dont have additional RCD protection on there distribution/feeder circuits do they?

At least in this domestic installation we have ADS as well as additional protection by means of an RCD.

There you go Ban thats my technical opinion how about yours?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

We have a house with a detached out building that has a water supply pipe emerging from the concrete floor. The pipe comes out the ground in copper.

That may not be used as a protective conductor.

The regulations do not permit it.

 

[Starspark1]

Well please can you point me in the direction of this reg because no one else can!! It says it is permitted providing certain criteria is met!! Fair enough in this case it is not i accept that. I can see it states Oil etc must not but again not water providing criteria is met.

Also just out of curiosity what is it that makes you say Princeofdarkness was revolting? Is it because he basically picked holes with what you say in the exact way you try to do it to other people? Except he had a far greater technical knowledge/experience than yourself and constantly reminded you of when you were severly lacking in knowledge and being put right.As well as consistently outdoing you with his remarks and put downs?

Again i dont deny i need guidance on many things are you saying you dont ever??
Because as those links show and prince for one constantly proved you certainly do also!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Fair enough in this case it is not i accept that.

This is the case we are discussing.

This is the case where you suggested it could be used.

Also just out of curiosity what is it that makes you say Princeofdarkness was revolting? Is it because he basically picked holes with what you say in the exact way you try to do it to other people?

No, it's because his persona made me want to vomit.

Except he had a far greater technical knowledge/experience than yourself and constantly reminded you of when you were severly lacking in knowledge and being put right.As well as consistently outdoing you with his remarks and put downs?

Dream on.

Again i dont deny i need guidance on many things are you saying you dont ever??

No.

Because as those links show and prince for one constantly proved you certainly do also!

What those links show is that a lot of the posts there were written by people who are seriously hard of thinking.