Replacing Shower with Bath - Advice please.

[Exinferis]

Thought I'd start a new topic as the last one's gone off somewhere and this is a whole differen't ballgame anyway.

Can't replace the waste of the shower and, for many other reasons, we've decided to fit a bath instead. Due to the poor work previously carried out by whoever decided they were good at DIY, I've today been looking at the pipework and going, "Eh?"

So, we've a small bathroom and the original layout would have been (entering the door) bath on left, sink straight ahead (under window) toilet next to sink. Layout now (due to bath removal) is shower to left, sink next to shower, toilet in original possition. So, I need to move the sink back to it's original possition, which is fine as I've identified the pipes for the taps there. But not sure what's going on with the bath pipes. Spent half the day Googleing variations of "Plumb in a Bath", but can't find any info. Should bath pipes be bigger than sink pipes? 'Cause if so there's only one. That I can see.

Anyone know where I can get a visual How-To on how to connect bath taps to the pipes as most How-To's seem to neglect that rather important step.

Cheers,
Ex

 

[John506]

2 of these http://www.screwfix.com/prods/35906...eedfit-Female-Tap-Connector-x-15mm-Pack-of-10

1 of these http://www.screwfix.com/search.do;j...HZOSFEY?_dyncharset=UTF-8&fh_search=bath+trap

some of this http://www.screwfix.com/prods/19477...0?cm_re=SEARCHPROMO-_-40MM WASTE PIPE-_-19477

I wouldn't go to screwfix because you have to buy in bulk, but if you go to your local DIY store or plumbers merchants I'm sure you will find them single and cheaper.

Screw the JG tap connectors (first link) onto the threads of the taps of the bath, then connect your hot and cold to those tap connectors (just push them in, it's pushfit).

If it's copper tails coming from the tap, you will have to solder them.

Screw the trap (second link) to the thread on the bath plug underneath (making sure all washers are used correctily).

Connect some of the 40mm waste pipe (third link) out of the wall and into a hopper if you have one, if not look up *connecting to soil stack*, and as you might of guessed, connect it to the soil stack

There is no specific gradient the pipe should be, just on the p*ss to let the water run away, but not too much that it will run full bore and pull the trap.

Don't be shy to use alot of waste pipe clips.

edit: if the plug leaks use silicone sealent where the plug meets the bath (on the inside of the bath) and wipe off once tightened and make it look nice.

Don't buy waste push fit fittings from B&Q, they're sh*te.

Use a level on the bath and adjust the screwing feet to make it level, (you don't need to put it on a tilt so the water runs away because the bath is already made like that.)

 

[JPC]

john506...i've been buying them from b and q for a while and always ok....a lot better than the cheap ones from screwfix etc.

Sometimes cheaper than PTS

 

[John506]

I got a few when fitting a temporary bath, and the pipe wouldn't even go into it, and they were both definately 40mm.

Maybe I got some from a bad batch

 

[Richard C]

There is no specific gradient the pipe should be, just on the p*ss to let the water run away, but not too much that it will run full bore and pull the trap.

That is not correct; the Building Regulations Part H requires a minimum gradient along with several other requirements that govern what you should & shouldn’t do. It's not rocket science & you should spend a little time understanding the requirements to ensure you don't make any mistakes that could make things difficult in the future. Download here:
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/professionals/en/1115314110382.html

With static hot & cold water storage tanks, the bath supplies are usually 22mm; but if you have a combi boiler fittes things may be limited 15mm, I have no experience here. I would also suggest you use push fit rather than solvent weld waste fittings as they are more DIY friendly when you make the inevitable mistake; the fittings sold by B&Q are actually Marley, who are one of the largest soil/waste pipe manufacturer’s in the UK so I don't really understand the slagging.

This design guide;
http://www.hunterplastics.co.uk/download/29/Design Criteria.pdf

this will help you understand how to re-plumb your bath correctly. There is also one for Marley & a few others + you should be able to find guide to fitting a bath; Google should pick them all up. If there is anything you don’t understand, post back.

 

[Richard C]

I got a few when fitting a temporary bath, and the pipe wouldn't even go into it, and they were both definately 40mm.

Maybe I got some from a bad batch

The 40mm refers to the INSIDE diameter; it's a well know fact that some manufacturers use diffrenet wall thickness, probably why your temporary pipework did not fit!

 

[John506]

Richard,

You're just pointlessly getting technical.

How many plumbers do you think work out the exact gradient fall, and fit bang on that, everyone on my college course passed the bathroom suite by just allowing the water to run out but not at full bore.

I've worked with a few qualified plumbers who don't work out the gradient as to Part H.

And don't say you do everything spot on to Part H, working out gradients, air/smoke tests etc when fitting a simple bathroom suite.. because if you say you do, it's a lie.

 

[JPC]

i do......get all my books out..... everytime i fit waste pipe in.

it only took me 4 days to do a bathroom swap.

You are right, plumbers don't sit down and get right angles out etc to do a precise gradient, but an understanding of the required fall is essential, to then be able to know what you can get away with.

You telling him just slap it in might not have been the most helpfull

 

[John506]

Ok so maybe I should have said by putting it "on the p*ss" as I quote myself, it should only be slightly.

 

[Richard C]

Richard,
You're just pointlessly getting technical.

I disagree; I’m not “getting technical” just directing the OP to the correct way of doing it; & I’m certainly not pointless.

How many plumbers do you think work out the exact gradient fall, and fit bang on that, everyone on my college course passed the bathroom suite by just allowing the water to run out but not at full bore.

The experienced ones don’t have to, they can set the minimum fall by eye; the inexperienced would be wise to check to be sure. Advising an obvious novice (no offence to the OP) to put it in “just on the **** to let the water run away” is hardly good advice.

I've worked with a few qualified plumbers who don't work out the gradient as to Part H.

They are either experienced, as I said above, or vankers who have no understanding of drainage systems let alone the regulations they are supposed to comply with.

And don't say you do everything spot on to Part H, working out gradients, air/smoke tests etc when fitting a simple bathroom suite.. because if you say you do, it's a lie.

I didn’t say I did; some of it a bit OTT but, at the end of the day, if that’s what the BI wants then so be it! The installation must work effectively & the easiest way of ensuring that is to follow the manufacturers design recommendations for their products (& they make the stuff so they should know) &, by strange coincidence, the Building Regulations say more or less the same thing.

You only have to read through the archive posts on here to discover that so many folks are posting as a result of problems due to cowboy builders & even some, so called, plumbers installing waste/foul drain systems without any real clue as to what they are doing. I generally know what I’m doing but if I don’t, I at least take the trouble to find out!

 

[Exinferis]

Many thanks to everyone who's posted. Sorry I seem to have instigated a forum war!

Everyone who takes the time to respond to a post such as mine makes it easier for those of us who aren't professional plumbers to get the job done in the best way possible If any of you had seen the utter mess this house, as a whole, is in then you'd understand that any advice is much appreciated.

For my part many years ago I used to work as a chippies mate and so had some oppotunity to watch the plumbers on a few jobs, so I have an inkling of what's what, but I wouldn't know the regulations of today.

The original network of pipes is still in place, so it's mostly a matter of reconnecting the pipes, although I do have a couple of questions which haven't been covered yet so bear with me!

As I said the sink pipes are still in place and I can see what goes where. But the bath pipes seem odd; there's only one pipe that I can see and it's bigger than the sink pipes. Is this normal? I would have thought that there would be two pipes, one for hot, one for cold and that both would be a larger size as the taps are larger. But, I could be wrong!

And, all the large grey pipework (sorry, I don't know the technical terms!) is all in place and it looks to me that the sink and bath wastes will both just push-fit into holes in this large waste. This also connects to the toilet. So I would think that, once the bath is correctly installed and level, once I connect the pipe from the bath waste to the large grey pipework it should be at the correct gradient?

Sorry if none of that makes sense. I can take a few pics tomorrow and upload them if that all sounds like nonsence!

Thanks again,
Ex

 

[Richard C]

Many thanks to everyone who's posted. Sorry I seem to have instigated a forum war!

No need to apologise & you haven’t started a war; at least I don’t think so!

Everyone who takes the time to respond to a post such as mine makes it easier for those of us who aren't professional plumbers to get the job done in the best way possible If any of you had seen the utter mess this house, as a whole, is in then you'd understand that any advice is much appreciated.

That’s what this forum is about & it’s one of the best.

For my part many years ago I used to work as a chippies mate and so had some oppotunity to watch the plumbers on a few jobs, so I have an inkling of what's what, but I wouldn't know the regulations of today.

Like it or not, practically any work done in home today is governed by regulations of one sort or another. I don’t say they are all correct, in fact some are a positive PITA; but I, along with many others on here, like to see things done properly & in accordance with current legislation as far as practically possible. Some may appear silly (& indeed are) but it’s usually no more effort & not much more expensive to do things correctly as to make a complete pigs ear of them. I didn’t make the legislation, I just do my best to make people aware of it & the potential pitfalls of ignoring it.

The original network of pipes is still in place, so it's mostly a matter of reconnecting the pipes,

That assumes it was correct in the first place & the regs havn't changed since!

although I do have a couple of questions which haven't been covered yet so bear with me! As I said the sink pipes are still in place and I can see what goes where. But the bath pipes seem odd; there's only one pipe that I can see and it's bigger than the sink pipes. Is this normal? I would have thought that there would be two pipes, one for hot, one for cold and that both would be a larger size as the taps are larger. But, I could be wrong!

If the large pipe is hot, it’s possible a 22mm hot water feed that used to connect to the bath. If the cold water is on mains pressure, the cold water feed to the bath may have been just a 15mm tee off the basin supply fitted with a 22mm tap connector; possibly no longer there.

And, all the large grey pipework (sorry, I don't know the technical terms!) is all in place and it looks to me that the sink and bath wastes will both just push-fit into holes in this large waste. This also connects to the toilet. So I would think that, once the bath is correctly installed and level, once I connect the pipe from the bath waste to the large grey pipework it should be at the correct gradient?

The large waste (110mm) is probably the soil pipe, is it horizontal or vertical? If vertical, it’s probably the stack (hopefully vented) & it’s good news if the waste pipes connect directly into it. There can be no guarantee it even had a good fall but hopefully it was installed correctly.

Sorry if none of that makes sense. I can take a few pics tomorrow and upload them

It does sort of but pictures would be perfect so we can see exactly what’s there.

 

[Exinferis]

Well, it has been about 15 years since I worked in the trade so I would expect a fair few things to have changed!

Anyway, I've uploaded some pictures so you can see what's what. I've marked what pipe is hot/cold etc so you can get a better idea of the mess I need to sort out! As you can see from the pictures it's not a nice neat and tidy job. I wasn't overly surprised to find that the sink waste leading into the soil (thanks for that!) pipe was bunged up with a bin bag and some Duck tape. (Check out my pictures of the shower for more on what I've had to deal with.) And why, oh why, was No More Nails invented? It's been the baine of my life! Argh!

The soil pipe runs vertically from loft to kitchen and then there's a horizontal pipe that connects the loo, sink and bath/shower. You can see it in the pics. I've no idea if it's vented. How would I find out? If it involves loft activity then it'll have to stay a mystery as I literally can't get in it!

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• Exinferis
• 19 Nov 2008
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• Exinferis
• 19 Nov 2008
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• Exinferis
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• Exinferis
• 19 Nov 2008
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Actually, while we're on the subject of baths, does anyone have a recommendation as to where I can get a 1500 or 1600mm bath? I spent most of yesterday searching the web and found quite a few, but with £40/£50 delivery fees. There's one on eBay that looks alright: Bath But, well, eBay! You never know these days. Otherwise I found one from a Welsh company who's delivery is peanuts, but only a 2 year guarntee on the bath itself. Opinions?

Thanks,
Ex

 

[John506]

Richard,
You're just pointlessly getting technical.

I disagree; I’m not “getting technical” just directing the OP to the correct way of doing it; & I’m certainly not pointless.

How many plumbers do you think work out the exact gradient fall, and fit bang on that, everyone on my college course passed the bathroom suite by just allowing the water to run out but not at full bore.

The experienced ones don’t have to, they can set the minimum fall by eye; the inexperienced would be wise to check to be sure. Advising an obvious novice (no offence to the OP) to put it in “just on the p**s to let the water run away” is hardly good advice.

I've worked with a few qualified plumbers who don't work out the gradient as to Part H.

They are either experienced, as I said above, or vankers who have no understanding of drainage systems let alone the regulations they are supposed to comply with.

And don't say you do everything spot on to Part H, working out gradients, air/smoke tests etc when fitting a simple bathroom suite.. because if you say you do, it's a lie.

I didn’t say I did; some of it a bit OTT but, at the end of the day, if that’s what the BI wants then so be it! The installation must work effectively & the easiest way of ensuring that is to follow the manufacturers design recommendations for their products (& they make the stuff so they should know) &, by strange coincidence, the Building Regulations say more or less the same thing.

You only have to read through the archive posts on here to discover that so many folks are posting as a result of problems due to cowboy builders & even some, so called, plumbers installing waste/foul drain systems without any real clue as to what they are doing. I generally know what I’m doing but if I don’t, I at least take the trouble to find out!

Ok... I agree with everything you have said, and I'm not trying to cause an argument or anything. When I said pointlessly getting technical I just meant the guy doesn't know how to connect waste pipes so searching through Part H looking for how everything has to be is going to be a bit of a bar stool.

If he did take my advice and slightly put it on a gradient, 9/10 it would be fine, the water would run away, and the trap would stay, so it just seems a good way for him to understand and do it.

 

[Richard C]

You need to confirm that the large “Bath pipe” is in fact a hot feed. You can do that by either peering under the floorboards to see if the basin (now shower) feed is tee’d off it or connect a short length of pipe to that service valve, stick an attached hose down the loo, open the valve & wait. I suspect what they’ve done is used the original basin hot feed & diverted it to the shower with that bend, disconnected the bath feed at the service valve & diverted the cold feed via that elbow to the shower. As I said previously, if your cold feed is mains pressure, I suspect the bath cold feed may have originally teed off the sink feed. You’ve got the basic feeds there but the whole lot is an absolute bodge; You can use the original 22mm bath hot feed (after you’ve confirmed that’s what it is), all you probably need is a new olive for the service valve. Take the basin hot feed from the top of the original (which now goes to the shower through that elbow); run a new cold feed to the basin (where that bend is in front of the scorched soil pipe) & tee off at an appropriate height to the bath; the type of bath tap(s) you use will determine the end fittings. Use new solder ring fittings but if you’re unhappy with soldering, you could use compression fittings.

I looks like you’ve got a separate boss fitting on the stack for the bath waste lurking under the floorboards which is good; all you have to do is connect up to that. The w/c run is sucha mess I would replace the whole lot using a new pipe section into the stack; it looks to be push fitting so you should be OK but it could take a little persuading to separate it from the swept tee in the stack. Once you’ve got your new pipe section in & located the w/c with a new pan connector you can sort out the basin waste. Separate stack connections are always best but I can see that won’t be easy for you; locate your basin, drill a suitable sized hole in the top of the soil pipe & fit a new strap on boss connector (as it is now) & connect your basin waste to that; or you may be able to use a pan connector with a moulded in basin boss. It should be OK but if you start drawing the basin trap when the loo is flushed, you will need to fit either an air admittance or Hepo valve.

Cant really help with the bath.