Requirements & costs to be able to self cert??

[Hallsy]

I have done a lot of reading around on this but there seem to be many different bodies, lots of different courses, etc so I'd rather ask those in the know, who do it day in, day out.

First off, I'm an electrical engineer, did a 4 year apprenticeship and have since worked 4 years as an electrical engineer in automotive manufacture, involving installation, maintenance & modifcation of machine tools. Day in, day out work for me is fault finding, with machine mods probably a close second. My 3ph installation work is few & far between, as we have a dedicated dept for that.

Anyway, we're getting hit by the downturn in business and are likely to be approaching a 4 day week, as well as lots of down day that we are already experiencing.

My brother in law runs a roofing firm and often gets asked about electrical jobs, that he outsources to an electrician he uses.

He asked me about getting myself into a positoon to take these small jobs on, to supplement me through the rough patch.

Thing is, I don't really have any domestic qualifications. As part of the apprenticeship I did a BET 1,2 & 3 in electrical installation & testing (doubt it's recognised) and a few years back sat & passed C&G 2381.

As I gather I would have to join a recognised body, update my C&G2381 to 2382 (I've read about a 1 day refresher course for this?) and then pass C&G2391?

Am I right in thinking that the bodies, such as NICEIC have membership fees? Also, as I very rarely do testing, and college was a long while, I'd feel more confortable sitting a beginner/intermediate C&G2391 course, I'm guessing this would probably be a 5 day course at around £800?

Not sure what a one day refresher would cost to get me up to C&G2382.

Then I'd need insurance right?

What about test equipment? I have a coule of Fluke meters, but neither are calibrated. I'd also need insulation resistance & earth loop impedance tester right? Have to keep calibrated?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this will end up being quite an outlay for just a few jobs here & there, unless there is another way? Would I need to go full scope?

I can see that it would be good if I intended to go fully self employed and make a go of it as a business, but I'm not convinced I'd be much better off, and would have a lot more paperwork/hours to go with it.

Without getting personal, is it usual for a domestic electrician to earn around/excess of £40k in the South East? If so then I could see it being worth it, and with my company offering a 30% paid sabbatical (12 months) it could be time to think about a change, but if not, it probably wouldn't be worth it for me.

Hope someone can offer some advice, sorry for the long post!!

 

[Spark123]

Thing is, I don't really have any domestic qualifications. As part of the apprenticeship I did a BET 1,2 & 3 in electrical installation & testing (doubt it's recognised) and a few years back sat & passed C&G 2381.

How long ago did you sit the C&G2381?
I can't comment on the BET as I don't know what they are, any competent person schemes you approach will be able to tell you what you need.

As I gather I would have to join a recognised body, update my C&G2381 to 2382 (I've read about a 1 day refresher course for this?) and then pass C&G2391?

Possibly, I believe there is a time limit on when you passed the C&G2381 as to wether or not you can do the 2382 update course.
Failing this you will need to do the full exam, recommended if you don't use the regs often anyway.

Am I right in thinking that the bodies, such as NICEIC have membership fees?

Too right!

Also, as I very rarely do testing, and college was a long while, I'd feel more confortable sitting a beginner/intermediate C&G2391 course, I'm guessing this would probably be a 5 day course at around £800?

C&G2391 is a qualification for people already doing inspection, testing and certification. The one I did was definately not a beginners course!
Are you up to speed on the likes of house wiring? Might be worth looking for a course on this sort of stuff first.
Not all competent person schemes require you to have C&G2391 to be a member, don't think the NICEIC DI does for one.

Not sure what a one day refresher would cost to get me up to C&G2382.

You'll have to ask at a C&G approved centre as to wether you can or can't do the one day update and what it costs.

Then I'd need insurance right?

Yep, £2M PLI for Domestic installers schemes, professional indemnity may also be recommended.

What about test equipment? I have a coule of Fluke meters, but neither are calibrated. I'd also need insulation resistance & earth loop impedance tester right? Have to keep calibrated?

You need a full set of calibrated installation test equipment, IR tester, Continuity tester, voltage indicator, efli+pfc tester, RCD tester and the necessary knowledge to use them and interpret the test results.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this will end up being quite an outlay for just a few jobs here & there, unless there is another way? Would I need to go full scope?

It is a bit of an outlay, I don't generally do domestic work but hold everything above apart from the enrolment to a competent person scheme and PI. If you are only doing houses then you only need to go for a domestic installer grade. If you are looking to go industrial or commercial then you may find they require you to have full scope. Usually a contractual thing with the latter 2.

 

[Hallsy]

Thanks for your reply Spark123.

I do tend to use the regs reasonably reguarly, but mainly for voltage drop or cable size lookup tables, as I say, we do a reasonable amount of machine mods, so have to factor in cable sizing, etc and should still work to the regs whatever we do with the machines.

I have done private work in the past (house wiring), and studied domestic wiring at college so have a reasonable understanding of domestic wiring, but perhaps not the complete ins/outs that someone doing it full time has.

I was unaware that you would need to meet the full criteria as laid out above for industrial wiring, does it depend on the contractor/employer?

As an example we can install 3ph machines (or 1ph) in our factory, although another department would have to test it. However I don't think they have any recognised qualies to backup the testing, if they have they are probably from the 60's (both guys are approaching retirement age).

To take the C&G2391 what experience would be helpful? At college we did the insulation/resistance tests you would do at the CU, and also earth loop impedance iirc. It's been a long while, but I'd guess I still know the basics.

At my local college a 4 day 2391 course is £655, a one day 2383 is £185 (if you have 2381 or equiv - I took mine around 3 years ago).

Megger, earth loop & RCD tester will be around £300 each, so £900.

General meter I already have, would need to get it calibrated. Tools ditto, although they are my work tools.

Membership fees, I'm hearing around £600 for most of the bodies.

PLI, around £100 per year?

So it's going to cost me in excess of £2k just to get set so that I can do the odd job here & there.

As I say, if I thought that it would be worth it to have a go, and go fully self employed it would be worth it, but that takes me back to my question of how well it would likely pay.

A friend of mine is often asking me to work for his contracting firm (they do industrail mainly) but the rates of pay are lower than what I'm on currently. Although I realise when you're self employed there is no midle man to pay.

 

[Spark123]

I was unaware that you would need to meet the full criteria as laid out above for industrial wiring, does it depend on the contractor/employer?

It can vary between employers however it all comes back to the EAWR, how can you show competence? Qualifications and experience can count towards this a lot.

As an example we can install 3ph machines (or 1ph) in our factory, although another department would have to test it. However I don't think they have any recognised qualies to backup the testing, if they have they are probably from the 60's (both guys are approaching retirement age).

As long as they have the necessary training and have experience that is fine.

To take the C&G2391 what experience would be helpful? At college we did the insulation/resistance tests you would do at the CU, and also earth loop impedance iirc. It's been a long while, but I'd guess I still know the basics.

A good understanding of the inspections, tests and interpreting test results is essential. Like I said it is more for those who are already doing IT&C, not starting out.

At my local college a 4 day 2391 course is £655, a one day 2383 is £185 (if you have 2381 or equiv - I took mine around 3 years ago).

3 years should be fine to allow you to do an update course, 30 multichoice questions in 1 hour. I did mine in 25 mins

Megger, earth loop & RCD tester will be around £300 each, so £900.

Megger MFT 1552 is about £540 and does all the tests.

General meter I already have, would need to get it calibrated. Tools ditto, although they are my work tools.

Not much point if you don't need to use it, the MFT does all the necessary installation tests, but you'll still need a set of GS38 isolation testers.

 

[Hallsy]

Cheers for that. Had thought they may be a one-for-all tester, but hadn't looked for one.

I'm so used to using a general multimeter that I'd still use one for general prodding around IMO.

GS38 isoltaion testers? Do you mean leads? If so, then I have various sets that meet that requirement.

 

[Spark123]

GS-38 is guidance issued from the HSE on test leads for electricians and includes voltage measuring devices.
The testers I am talking about are these: http://www.pat-training.co.uk/martindale_gs38_voltage_indicator.htm

I have a couple of fluke multimeters, I have my works one calibrated only because it is used on instrumentation loops. I don't generally use a multimeter at all on installation work.

 

[ericmark]

You can get an all in one tester we did on one job as we needed it to also work on 110 volts and be able to test earth rods but most people go for 3 testers the Mega, ELI, and RCD the first two are multi function to an extent.

The upgrade for C&G 2381 to 2382 is available if you did the 2381 after BS7671:2001 came out.

The C&G 2391 I did as a 12 week one 3 hour night per week night class the full 2382 is also done over same time scale and a lot more work in 2391 than the 2382. Here the 2382 now costs £275 for full course and £175 for upgrade.
Back in 2002 when I took 2381 it was about £80 that's some inflation!

But if your an electrical engineer you should have no problem its nothing like as hard as the maths to get even the lowest degree.

As to joining one of the self cert houses that will depend on the area you live in. Here in Flintshire to get Part P through the council is £115 for work up to £2000 so even if you only fit one socket in a kitchen you pay council £115 but in other counties they do a special rate for qualified people some where around 1/4 of price so although if you do it full time it is worth joining one of the houses if you only do a few jobs you can do it through the council.

I am told the next council along does that but never needed to do any work there so don't know all in's and out's

Although I am only a member of the IET which does not do Part P. I will still advise anyone on here who wants an electrician to use a registered electrician as it gives them some safe guards and so you are more likely to get work once you have signed up.

However work is tight everywhere now and this is not the time to start up on your own. The problem is you need to do so much work to get your outlay back. And can't see it would be really the work to go into when those already there are having such a hard time getting work.

 

[dingodeano]

Megger MFT 1552 is about £540 and does all the tests.

where from spark? that sounds cheap or is that less the V.A.T ? cause im interested in updating my cm400

 

[JACKC]

E Bay, brand new megger MFT1553 £480, came with calibration certificate, Swinton insurance £68 for electrical work, NAPIT membership £280 (from what I can remember). This is the Just 8 scheme for electrical engineers who are limited to 8 notifiable jobs per annum. I took the trade assessment test which consisted of written exams, mulit farce exam and a 7 hour practical on inspection and testing. Had to hold 2381 and 2391 as part of their enterance criteria.

 

[Spark123]

Megger MFT 1552 is about £540 and does all the tests.

where from spark? that sounds cheap or is that less the V.A.T ? cause im interested in updating my cm400

I bought mine from here: http://isswww.co.uk/products/Megger/MFT1552.aspx

 

[ccrowe]

So it's going to cost me in excess of £2k just to get set so that I can do the odd job here & there.

The trouble is that you'll need pretty much the same tools for "odd job" work as if you were going it alone full time.

This means well in excess of £2k if you're starting out. Here's a lot of what you'll need. I doubt I've covered everything...

You'll need hand and power tools, ladders, stock items (stuff like cable, sleeving, grommets, fixings, crimps, KO boxes, accessories, lock-out kit and a thousand other items) and a van (fueled, taxed and insured) to carry them all in.

Even if you've got a good range of tools for commercial work, you'd be amazed at all the stuff you don't have but need (eg cable rods, site lighting, drill bits, holesaws and augers).

Power tools - drills (SDS, impact, hex - battery and mains powered if you can) and saws (circular and jig).

Testers - depending on what you've already got, it's a toss-up between selling them on eBay and getting a multi-function tester or getting them calibrated and buying the test kit that you don't have.

Books - BS7671, OSG, Electricians Guide, EAW Regs, Approved Doc P, GN3.

Certificates - PIR, MWC, EIC.

Business cards, headed paper and advertising (Yell, your local paper, parish magazine or whatever) where appropriate.

Registration - annual fee plus charge for initial inspection.

Training - for domestic work you'll need C&G2382 and a recognised Domestic Installer qualification. Not sure about the other bodies, but at the moment NICEIC don't demand C&G2391.


I hope I haven't scared you off, but you've got to be realistic if you want to go it alone.

 

[Hallsy]

Thanks for the advice guys, and don't worry, I'm by no menas scared off.

I knew there would be a lot of work involved, and just wanted to be sure I was right. I think my brother in law often forgets that not everyone has the money/achievements that he has, he started out years ago with his brother as a couple of self employed roofer, and has now built himself up to be one of the larger roofing contractor/suppliers in the area.

I think the main thing for me, is that the tech/maths side of it would liekly be fine, but as I don't do it day in/day out, and don't keep up with the latest/quickest way of doing something, I may struggle a little to get jobs done as quickly as another spark.

The question of tools did come up, sure I have a full set of technician type tools at work, and various tools at home that I've used for odd jobs - but I agree, ideally I'd be looking at shelling out on a new set, or at least things I haven't got.

As an example I always chase & cut out boxes with a drill and chisel, but I bet nearly everyone uses box sinkers and chasing tools in the trade?

Spark123, those GS28 testers you linked to look like a square D mechanical voltage tester some of the guys at work had, it used to be that you had to have one in our workshop. Do you have to have one of those as well a multimeter then?

Also sounds like before sitting a C&G2391 (most schemes seem to want it) it would be beneficial to do a domestic installer course of some sort, any suggestions?

Appreciate being told now is not the time to go it alone. It was in the back of my mind that maybe I should give it a go, get all of the relevant qualifications, get out there doing odd jobs, build up a customer base and go for it. Take the 30% sybatical from work for 12 months and see how it goes.

Trouble is, for me going self employed is a big deal, and it's something I've considered down many avenues (I have various strings to my bow from being trained on different things at work) but never really had the balls or the cash.

Other thing, I was reading around and it seems the rate of pay for a domestic spark can vary from say £18.50 to £30 per hour. Does that sound right?

With the cost of tools, van, training, etc it wouldn't be worth me switching jobs for less than £20 per hour, and that would be based on a 40 hour week - which I can appreciate will not always happen.

It's a shame as it would be ideal to supplement me while we go through the rough stuff, but the costs just seem to high for a bit of 'on the side' work.

 

[JACKC]

I was in a similar postion myself 2 years ago, bit the bullet and got registered, bought the tools as required along the way. SDS drill, wall chaser etc was purchased depending on how big the job was. First rewire I bought all the big stuff. With my full time employment paying the bills, my shift days off I carry out electrical work. Earn about £4k per annum from it. Pays for all the holidays, and if I ever do get made redundant then I can hit the ground running. Customer base building up from friends, to friends of friends through word of mouth. Advertise in parish mags as good price, get a bit of work through these. As your bro in law is giving you the business, I would go for it. Didn't buy a van for a year as used the car, all tax deductable as well. As someones signature says,"if your going to work, work for yourself".

 

[bongos]

With my full time employment paying the bills, my shift days off I carry out electrical work.

In a similar position myself (not as far advanced down the qualification route yet though). Shift work has allowed me to spend my days off getting practical experience with other sparks and also learn the theory side behind the work. Don't like the 'day' job but at the moment it's completely secure and allows me to pay for my training and gain experience.

It was in the back of my mind that maybe I should give it a go, get all of the relevant qualifications, get out there doing odd jobs, build up a customer base and go for it. Take the 30% sybatical from work for 12 months and see how it goes.

Your decision will probably depend alot on your current financial situation. I'm sure someone once said 'you got to speculate to accumulate'...

 

[Spark123]

Spark123, those GS28 testers you linked to look like a square D mechanical voltage tester some of the guys at work had, it used to be that you had to have one in our workshop. Do you have to have one of those as well a multimeter then?

They are not the same as the old Square D ones, the Martindale one I linked to have neon indicators and don't vibrate on AC. Also on the same page is a proving unit (which I also have one of) which is used to test the probes before and after use. At work I have a set of UK issue steinel combichecks which are also GS38 approved, they have a self check function but we tend to use a socket to prove them.
Never ever use a multimeter to test for dead. It can be set wrong or misread. Don't buy a fluke T5 or another multimeter in a different package which needs to be set.